Dr. Irvine Nugent: Difficult Conversations, Leadership Fear, and the Behavioral Patterns That Damage Workplace Culture

Hi, I'm Debbie Longo, Transformational Coach,

and welcome to the Behavioral Profit Show. This

show is about one thing, why businesses don't

perform the way they should. Most leaders think

they have a strategy problem, but they don't.

It's behavioral. It's how decisions are made,

how pressure is handled, and how people operate

inside the business day to day. On this show,

we break down what's really driving missed targets,

sold growth and poor execution, and what shifts

when behavior changes. Because when behavior

changes, performance improves, and that's where

profit comes from. We have a very special guest

today, Ivan Nuchin, and we're going to take a

closer look at what's really going on inside

his business, what's working and what's not,

and where behavior may be impacting performance.

Let's get into it. Good afternoon, Ivan. Welcome

to the show. Thank you so much, Debbie. Excited

to be here. Looking forward to your conversation.

Thank you for being here. I really appreciate

it. So I'm going to ask you today to give us

a specific situation or scenario that you have

experienced in your business or in the business

world, some situation that you have personally

experienced and could be hopefully. will be either

a negative situation or something that was a

change in the business, something we went through

a change. And then the end result, whatever that

is, if it's a negative situation, then we're

hoping that the end result is going to be positive.

But what we're looking for here is really the

process of the changing of what it was as opposed

to what it is now. So I do this show for a few

different reasons. And one main reason is because

a lot of businesses have a lot of things, a lot

of issues and all different things that go on

in their business. And believe it or not, these

things are similar. So if I do a show for some

situation or whatever, I can easily have 10 people

listen to that show and they have almost the

same thing going on. These situations or whatever

are not unique. I want to ask the listeners if

they can identify with anything that we are listening

to right now in this podcast. And if they have

either any of these issues or whatever it is

going on in their business, this is a way for

them to get out of it. Because if it's a negative

situation or something you don't want to be in,

then you don't have to because there's no such

thing as that. Because anything that's negative

can always be turned into a positive. And my

business does not have to suffer. I do not have

to sit and sick and suffering with my business

because there's always a way out. And the whole

idea here. is to increase sales and profits.

Ultimately, that's the ultimate goal. And we

do that by changing the behavior. That's why

we're really focusing on the process here. So

if you could do that for me, I would appreciate

it. Thank you. Yeah. So I want to bring you back

to us. So I was CEO of a non -large nonprofit

and it was my first time in senior leadership.

And so I went into the role full of excitement,

expectation. And just like any new business owner

or you know, when you get in the job, there are

things you're told and things you're not told

and things are going well and sometimes they're

not. And I kind of did my best. I thought in

my mind, there was a lot of unresolved tension

and I kind of tried to manage it, really not

dig it up. I said, let's forge ahead. Let's just

get on with it. And after about six months, one

of the top employees comes to me and out of the

blue, he says, I need to talk to you. And he

said, so I said, OK, sure. And he looks at me

and he says, I quit. And it came from nowhere.

I was totally shocked. And so I said to him,

I said, why? Why are you quitting? And he said

to me, I am tired of working in an organization

that refuses to face difficult discussions head

on. That was tough because in many ways, what

he was saying was that you as a leader are not

creating an environment which is having these

tough discussions. And it really was an indictment

of my own leadership. And it really fell like

a brick load on me. And it was kind of this moment

where I had thought I was doing so well. And

then all of a sudden this particular incident

said, well, you know what, maybe I'm not. And

what is it within me? that is preventing these

difficult conversations from happening. And as

I looked at more, I saw it kind of just came

to the surface, this behavioral pattern within

me, which I would not have said to you, I'm avoiding

these conversations. I would have said to you,

I'm being professional. I just want things. I

want a nice business environment. I want people

to like each other, and I'm protecting the culture.

because God knows if we have these conversations

and people say things that they can take back,

relationships are going to be fractured. And

I'm the peacekeeper here. And in reality, that

was masking a deeper reality that I was avoiding

having these conversations and it was impacting

the business. And here was a visceral, which

someone was leaving. I was going to have to replace

this person, this top employee because of this

failure on my part to really tackle these conversations,

which I was fearful about. That's really interesting.

And thank you for sharing that. What was your

process when you realized that you that this

change was just happening? Yeah. From the beginning

until you were started having these conversations

and everything. And what did you think that the

path was going to be going on? based on that?

Well, to be honest, first of all, it started

with a little bit of denial and it was a little

bit of, no, it's not that bad and minimizing

it. And then I think really it started with self

-reflection. It began with me really asking myself

some difficult questions. And I think it's first

of all, and that was, is this an isolated incident

or is this happening in other parts? And I saw

a pattern there. I saw a pattern off really from

childhood. I grew up in the troubles of Northern

Ireland. I grew up with conflict all around me.

And I think the message instilled with me is

conflict's dangerous. Difficult conversations

get us into trouble. And so that was my behavioral

pattern. I think there was the realization that,

first of all, that got me to where I was. I was

a very good peacemaker, but it also was problematic.

in that I had tried to wallpaper over the difficult.

And so then I was faced with a choice. I can

either continue this road or I can make some

changes. And I think that made me want to change.

And that was pretty fearful because I still had

all that stuff going in within me. And I think

it started, the process I used is that I remember,

first of all, talking to my dad about it. and

a little confident. And I said, hey, this is

happening. And we had this great conversation

about this is being a part of our family dynamic.

We do this all the time. We avoid conversation.

It's not surprising. And I think with that kind

of light being shed, I think then I wanted to

kind of create within me, what are some safe

spaces to change? So what could I do to change

and take baby steps? Because it was very fearful

to have to go down the difficult conversation

route. And so what I started doing is, I think

for me, one word was curiosity, because I remember

talking to a really dear friend and they said

to me, what if you just became more curious?

What instead of whenever you feel that tension

of a difficult conversation, instead of feeling

yourself having to get into this deep, deep conversation,

just be curious and ask an open question and

say things like, help me understand your perspective

a little bit more. That's really interesting.

I didn't think of it that way. Tell me a little

bit more. And what was great about that is it

kind of brought my own. I love conversations

and I am curious about people. And so it engaged

that. Whereas before I was fearful, I wasn't

engaging that. And so what I found in that process,

is people love to speak and they love to be heard.

And the most important thing is what I feared

was that this was going to break down everything.

And what I got was people actually feeling I

was listening to them because of my innate curiosity.

And just because of that, that change, which

on the face of it is very simple, it really enabled

a different type of conversation. And because

it enabled a different type of conversation,

I think we were able to have different outcomes.

Yeah. So that was good. Thank you. So this is

one very big thing that I teach and I practice

for myself is that first of all, what exactly

what you're saying is that try not to make things

too complicated. And the first place that I make

it complicated is in my own brain. That's the

first place. And then whatever I'm thinking,

I expel out, which is a very, very big part of

behavior and stuff that I teach. And also, it's

perception. So what do I think I'm gonna say

to this person? What do I think this person's

gonna say back? How should I speak to this person?

Also, we don't know how the person's gonna take

it. So that's why, because I do a lot of this

conversations. and how to talk to people and

the wording. What I do too is, I don't know if

this would work in your situation, but a lot

of times I put things in the form of a question.

So when I do that, it's less threatening. I don't

wanna sound like it's an interrogation. Oh, I

want, oh, oh, hi. Hi, Jim, how you doing? Oh,

I wanna ask you a few questions. Right away,

you're like, bam, bam, bam, I wanna ask you questions.

I mean, that's like, it sounds like an interrogation.

So that's why. And then also break the ice. I

mean, there's a lot of things like I always suggest

like to talk about sports or the weather or something

like that. Oh, I'm just curious. How did this

happen? How did that happen? Blah, blah, blah.

And I start with the question or thank you for

talking to me. I start like the first sentence.

Oh, how you doing? How's the weather? This and

that. Thank you for talking to me. I really appreciate

that. How you making out today? Blah, blah, blah.

And then I will ask a question. They'll say a

statement, whatever. Whatever I wanna do. I mean,

I have a million suggestions, but whatever I

wanna do, I wanna do something that I think is

gonna be the least threatening to do it. And

also the way that I think I should do it. We

don't know how that person's going to take it.

That's the whole thing. And that's why I want

to be as gentle and least threatening as possible.

I'm telling you, I tell my people, my clients

and friends, try to think of that person as like

a little child. That's how gentle you want to

be. And this is the business owners do this all

the time. They come off with their employees,

rah, rah, rah. That person's a human being. Would

you like to be treated that way? I mean, that's

ridiculous. And like I say, this is very, very,

again, this is just what I was saying in the

beginning. This stuff is just very, very common.

But the thing is that I learn because I have

my own way of talking and my own way of doing

things. And if something, if I talk to somebody

or I'm having a conversation and that doesn't

work, then I have to change it because ultimately

I want it to work because I want to get the results

of whatever that is. the results of the conversation

or whatever the point to it is. So I have to

change it. But I learn from that. And then I

learn a lesson from that. And then I say, OK,

this person, I said this to this person, it didn't

work this way. Let me try it this way. Or like

a friend suggested something like what happened

in your case. And this is the thing. And this

like motivational speakers about this, this is

a very big topic, believe it or not. I know it

really is. Tell you the truth. So that was good.

So let's continue now. So what happens from then

until now or from then until when you got your

result? Yeah. So I think it is a muscle when

you're trying to change behavior. And I think

which has been instilled. I like to say we've

all got a conflict story. We all approach it

from messages we received as growing up and the

culture we grew up in. And so it's embedded within

us. when it's second nature to us. We're not

aware of it. And so to change that takes time.

But I think that's what I was thinking of the

baby steps. And I think for me, what happened

is that I became a little more courageous each

time when I realized, hmm, it's not as bad as

I'm catastrophizing it to be. And it doesn't

really have to turn out. And it's interesting

if you become genuinely curious with another

person is using gentle, it's amazing what you

get back. And so therefore you kind of like,

okay, well, it wasn't that bad. So in the next

conversation, I can be a little more courageous

and, and maybe, maybe I can address this performance

issue without it having to blow up in my face.

And that's what happened. It happened in the

sense of, and it is, you have to be prepared

to, I think, to take the baby steps and also

to take some steps backward. And I think you

were talking about that, you know, to, well,

that didn't work. Why didn't that work? And then

to really diagnose that. And I think I learned

about myself is that I have times of the day

when I'm better than others. I learned that.

that if I'm tired and I wake up at the wrong

side of the bed, it's probably not a good day

to have a serious conversation that I need to

have good energy, et cetera. And I think what

happened then is where I really saw the shift

is that I'd certain team meetings and I saw in

those meetings, people beginning to talk about

difficult issues that my courage kind of had

spread. And people now felt, okay, it's safe

now to bring up the elephant in the room. It's

safe to talk about these issues. And I think

that was my first sign that things were difficult,

or things were changing, I'm sorry. And I think

ultimately that led to better decisions, because

ultimately when people are able... to speak honestly,

then I think you get all the data and the more

data you have, the better decisions you make.

Yeah, that's very true. Thank you. And that was

very good that you spoke about that because that

is a good process, a good way of learning. And

you gave some very good suggestions and pointers

about things to do when we are having conversations

and also you made it, you turned it into, I learned

the lesson, and now, you know, this is my positive

outcome. So the idea is for me to, in this case

we're talking about conversations, where the

idea is for me to learn how to have conversation

where I can talk about anything and I could be

comfortable with it because it's how I say it.

My grandmother used to say, it's not what you

say, it's how you say it. And this is the thing,

because to me, my experience is that people are

very sensitive, and that's all there is to it.

I mean, people might say they're not. Maybe some

people are, maybe some people aren't, I don't

know. But like I said, my experience is that

there are a lot of people that are very sensitive.

And again, if I start... on a positive and I

don't start on a negative. Oh, and the other

thing too is eat your Wheaties because what happens

is that if my brain and you could also look this

up, this is a huge topic. When I feed myself

properly and I eat good food, my brain works

very well. And believe it or not, I'm more positive

as to if I didn't eat right, I could very well

be more negative because it's like, I don't feel

good. My stomach hurts. Why didn't eat the right

food? And that can go into negative talk and

negative behavior very easily. And this is a

huge, again, this is another thing that's a huge

topic. I know business owners that they don't

even eat. It's like, you know what I mean? Like,

you know, and they don't want to gain weight.

And like, how are you performing? You're not

eating. You don't eat breakfast. I mean, this,

you know what I mean? These, these are not good.

Number one, the stress will kill you above anything.

If you're a business owner and you have that

type of stress and you are not eating properly,

that's all of that is not a good recipe for success.

And then the other thing that Debbie is in our

country is that the sleep deprivation. So the

combination of diet and then people who are not

getting rest. And like I know I can go like one

day, but you get two or three days in a row.

I turn into a different human being without sleep

and people trying to manage a business, trying

to have conversations and they're just not getting

enough sleep. They're on edge and we say things

and it's terrible. So it is. Yeah. And if you're

a business owner and you're chasing money, money,

greed and power, and you're not taking care of

yourself, I don't know how it's going to work

out. And I want to use the big businesses, the

huge businesses, the ones that are successful,

the business owners, the CEOs, and how do they

work? And I want to use them if I can as a model

for these types of things. So this was good.

So how did it work out for you today? And you

mentioned a little bit about this, but. I'm talking

about like right now, second, how did everything

work out and how do you feel based on everything

we've talked about, the conversations, all the

lessons you've learned, all that stuff. How do

you feel? Yeah. And for me, I feel I now look

at conflict through a different lens. For me,

I see this as a conversation that hasn't happened.

And you know what? I humanize it in the sense

of. Conflict is nothing more than two human beings

having differences about what they feel, their

opinions, whatever. It's the most human thing

where there are two. In fact, and the other thing

is if there wasn't conflict, life would be pretty

boring if we were all the same. So I just look

at it now as this is human and it's interesting

and isn't it fascinating that we have these differences?

And so I kind of look at it now. It's just a

different emotion and a different feeling. And

that has helped me immensely. So I still avoid

conversations at times, but I know that I'm doing

it. But still, I built a muscle now that really

helps me look at it differently and approach

it differently. Yeah, that was good to me. This

is just my own take on it. Conflicts almost sounds

like a war. we're having a conflict, you know

what I mean? So a conversation or a banter, do

you ever hear of a banter? We use that a lot.

I'm from Ireland, we use banter a lot. My spiritual

teacher used to say that a lot. And that to me

is, I don't know about conflict. I mean, maybe

it's okay for some people, but again, when I'm

doing this, I want to try to be as gentle as

I can possibly be, unless I know the person,

you know? I mean, I don't always like if I'm

dealing with employees and stuff, because I've

helped all kinds of people like this. And if

I'm a business owner and a CEO and I'm dealing

with employees and stuff like a lot of employees,

I don't know them all because I don't sit there

and have like in -depth conversations with them

every day because I don't I don't have time for

that. So this is the thing. And even if they

have a supervisor, their supervisor is not going

to know them that well either. Because we're

just like, get the job done. Let's make money.

And that's what the business is mainly focused

on. And that's what it should be. You know what

I mean? That's what it should be focused on,

right? That's how a business works. But this

is about one main thing, too, that this show

is about is how you treat your employees in a

positive way based on how we have conversations

with our employees, even the business owner to

the employee and the employee to the business

owner. But who is the one that is responsible

and who is the one that's going to give the most

influence? Is it the business owner or the employee?

Well, I think it's the business owner that's

going to influence the employee because sometimes

the employee wants to be in that business. Maybe

that business owner is like a coach. or CEO,

maybe they're like a coach or a mentor to them.

Maybe that's the career like that they want to

pursue or whatever. And that's why we want the

CEOs and the executives or whoever to be always

as positive as they can possibly be. And that's

the thing. And that's really the bottom line.

So this was a very, very good conversation about

a conversation. Absolutely. Excellent. So that

was very good. So thank you. And that was a very

good way to close. I really appreciate that.

Before we wrap up, I want to leave you with this.

That's what behavioral profit is all about. Understanding

what's really driving performance inside a business.

If something isn't working, it's easy to assume

it's strategy, the market, or external factors.

But more often than not, It's how the business

is operating day to day. Once that shifts, everything

else follows. If your business isn't performing

the way it should, there's a reason and it's

not random. If you want to identify what's driving

your results and fix it, connect with me directly.

Thank you for listening and I'll see you on the

next episode. And thank you, Ivan, for being

on the show. I really appreciate it. My pleasure.