The Exchange Mindset: Rethinking Influence and Decision-Making

Welcome back to The Behavioral Profit, the podcast

where we decode the human side of business growth.

I'm your host, Debbie Longo, executive behavioral

coach. And each week we dive into the mindset

shifts, leadership strategies, and cultural behaviors

that drive higher performance and greater profits.

Whether you're leading a team or building a business,

this is just space to learn how human behavior

fuels business success. Today I'm joined by Eric

Staples, Director of Growth Strategy and Blue

Dog and the architect behind Storycraft, an audience

impact and influence training that turns complex

human insights into on the ground, moment of

driving habits. For about two decades, Eric has

shown organizations how to supplement belief

-driven slogans with behavior -driven systems

that really stick, and help their teams and brands

get unstuck. In this episode, he'll unpack why

storytelling is often the wrong lens for thinking

about presentations and pitches. And there are

really only three kinds of people in the world,

and how just a little bit of insight can unlock

a whole lot of impact. Good afternoon, Eric.

Welcome to the show. Thanks, Debbie. Good to

be here. Thanks. Is there anything that you would

like to add to that intro? No, I think you nailed

it. I think in particular, the notion of behavior

-driven systems is key, which I know is a huge

part of your focus on this podcast. Yes, that

was very good. Thank you very much. So there's

three topics and some discussion after that.

So the first topic is the exchange mindset, transforming

every interaction into mutual value. Yeah, that

one is really key. And it's it's the grounding

of for Blue Dog, all the things that we do, in

particular, the organizational upskilling that

I lead across a number of different trainings.

You mentioned storycraft, and that's sort of

the cornerstone training. And in particular,

that one, although it is storycraft, that's what

it's named. It's a bit of a. almost a bait and

switch because it's less about sort of classical

storytelling tips and tropes the kind of things

you would expect to find if you googled storytelling

training or storytelling how to be a great storyteller

and it has more in common with the fundamentals

of negotiation if you were to take like a 301

negotiation course, you'd see some similar principles

applied a bit differently, but like -minded.

And that's because at Blue Dog, anyway, we believe

that everything is an exchange, every professional

interpersonal interaction, whether it's a presentation,

a pitch, a workshop, or even just a quick, like,

incidental one -on -one hallway conversation.

It's an exchange. You're seeking something from

the person or people you're talking to, which

means they need something from you in order to

give you that. And what I've found is that moving

from a mindset of, I've got a story to tell,

I've got a message to give, I've got an outcome

to ensure... which are not wrong ideas, but they're

not the first idea. The first idea is there's

an exchange to be made. What is that exchange?

How is that exchange made? That's the most effective

starting point. Thank you very much. I appreciate

that. Just to comment on one thing that you said,

what I do is one of the reasons why I do this

podcast, The Behavioral Profit, is to showcase

and present different industries, careers, and

when I do that, that allows somebody that is

in this type of industry or maybe wanting to

get into it, compare and be able to maybe identify

or just be curious about how does the behavior

relate to this industry. And that's why I ask

for the topics and the questions that the guests

wants, because it's about, well, first of all,

it's the show for the guests. It's not the show

for me. So even though I'm hosting it, but the

point is the reason why it's the show for the

guests is because I'm trying to get more focus

on this specific type of industry. which is why

I don't only focus on one thing on one aspect.

And when I do that, because I'm focusing on the

behavior and the personality and what happens

in this. Industry in this job in this career,

and I'm trying to get as many listeners an overview

of all different types of audiences that maybe

somebody some something somebody can relate to

and maybe they can identify with that or Maybe

they're just curious whatever the situation is

it could be a million different situations So

the basically I'm trying to get the broad range

That's kind of basically the thing So the other

topics that we're talking about here, you know,

we're gonna get into this but this exchange model

is very interesting because I am Maybe exchanging

something for something and my exchanging one

type of mindset for another am I exchanging a

negative for a positive? So if I go to the store,

I want to buy something I have to pay for it

With money, that's an exchange. I'm giving them

money and they're giving me something. But there's

also an exchange with mindset. I know you talked

about a different thing. Well, similar. I'm trying

to get, you know, similar to what you're talking

about. But when I read this and when I listen

to you, this is kind of what I get from it. And

I think to a point that I think you are speaking

to, this is the universal truth. There always

is an exchange. You're always wanting something,

and that means you always need to give something.

And I think that is one of the biggest misses

in corporate America in particular, the spaces

that I work in, is one of two things happens.

Either the person just instinctively goes in

and says, here's what I'm trying to get out of

this and doesn't think about the other side of

that exchange, or equally unhelpfully they say,

this is what they need to hear from me. and they're

not thinking about it as an exchange either.

I think even most simply, I was just doing a

training for a client an hour ago, right before

this, around what we'll talk about soon, this

head -heart -gut model. And even there, although

I was giving them information, what I wanted

from them and needed from them was their attention

and their engagement. And so if I walk in and

say I want their attention and their engagement,

what do I need to give them in order to get those

things from them? That changes my mindset. It

changes the way I even might measure my success

in that situation. If I just walk in and say

I'm the messenger, they need to listen to what

I have to say, I'm missing out on the bulk of

the actual equation that will drive something

meaningful out of that exchange. Yes, that was

good. Thank you. Okay, so let's talk about the

head heart gut model and an overview of that

and what that exactly means It's my favorite

tool of all tools. It's something that we at

Blue Dog use in essentially every meeting every

conversation and you already tee this up Debbie

a moment ago There are essentially reductively

but not inaccurately three kinds of people in

the world. That's the assertion and heart and

gut people This is not new news, necessarily

this notion of head, heart, gut, intelligences

or the three brains, different kinds of decision

-making filters. But what's different about the

way that we treat it is most of what you would

read if you were to pick up Forbes or HBR or

a leadership development book says to be an effective

leader or even an effective person, you need

to know when to lean into your head, when to

lean into your heart, when to lean into your

gut, which is true. But not particularly helpful

because none of us have equal propensities or

fluidities across those three spaces and all

of us have a set of defaults in one of them.

I've been using this tool for. in both the corporate

side and growth consulting and as a growth coach

for individuals and teams, this is the number

one tool behind them. And I've yet to meet anyone

across hundreds and hundreds of people that didn't

have a default, a way that they prefer to process

information, navigate decisions, et cetera. And

the thing that I want your audience to hear from

that is if you don't know what your defaults

are, and what your audience's defaults are, then

you could be talking right past each other and

fundamentally not understanding what each other

are needing out of that exchange. And so that

heart and gut, and there's a whole model behind

it, and I'm not going to go into the depths of

unpacking it here, but it's essentially a shortcut

to emotional intelligence and audience empathy.

And you can imagine the last thing I'll say before

I take a little pause. and the breather is you

can imagine what those things mean. I mean, heads

have a particular tendency towards logic and

reason, and hearts have a tendency. They tend

to compass or center around belief, conviction,

connection. Guts sort of center their decision

-making in instinct, progress, movement. Those

are different things. Those are different sets

of needs and a different set of value, actually,

that is really helpful to understand if you're

going to be working with people and certainly

really important to understand if you're looking

to impact and influence people. Does that check

out? I mean, you've talked to a lot of people.

Can you see those patterns yourself? Yes, definitely.

And that was very good. But I think maybe I know

you just it's an overview. So you described it

briefly. So I'm sure there's more to it than

this. But my emotions. And my thinking and my

behavior, number one, can be adjusted. Like we

just talked about the exchange, negative, positive,

whatever it is. I don't really, I don't know

if this is about what this is, but I don't really

want to have one thing control me. or overpower

another thing. So one part of my personality,

right, overpowers another part, or empathy might

overpower me being fearful. So I want to try

to make it as even as possible, like an even

swap kind of thing. And if I could do that, so

one would be like doing something to excess.

I'm doing too much of one thing, like I'm too

empathetic all the time with everything. And

then it turns out then like I find that one thing

will wind up controlling another thing So one

part of your behavior will wind up controlling

another part and then there's a lot of issues

with that Not only that that just that is a problem

within itself But then there's a lot of things

that could happen because I might be because

I'm emphasizing one part more, right? Then there

are issues around me, the way other people react

and stuff. That could be a little bit overbearing.

And then one person says, why are you this way?

The other day you were not this way. So that's

why it could be a lot of, a lot of issues with

that. So I don't know if that has anything to

do with it, but that was what I was thinking

when you were talking. Yeah, and I think that's

a great reason to not live within the default

limitations and default momentum that these centers

do naturally create. What you're speaking to

is actually why it's so important to surface

these things, but also realize the limitations

of our ability to just immediately be the well

-run of people we want to be. The point of head,

heart, gut as a model of understanding the decision

-making tendencies and momentums of different

kinds of people is to help us make those things

visible so that we can value the things that

are really helpful for me as a head. I have value

to add that is different than the value of my

coworker Jake, that is different than the value

of our CEO Shannon, who's a heart and a gut respectively.

So I can understand that actually those represent

different dimensions of decisional value. Between

these things, reason, logic, thinking, that's

the head. Connection, beliefs, conviction, that's

the heart. Instinct, value, progress, that's

the gut. Which of those could we cross off in

an important decision? None. Which of those is

most important in an important decision? That

actually depends on the decision itself. And

so one of the things that I dislike about a lot

of typing tools, like, for example, Myers -Briggs,

they have a love -hate relationship with that,

is because it tends to separate. And it says

reductively, I'm an introvert. You're an extrovert.

And that's why we we can't quite ever fully reconcile.

This says the opposite. It says I do have tendencies

because of how I'm hardwired. That's good. That's

that's what I need to know how to use those tendencies

well and know what limitations they create. And

ultimately, I think Debbie to your exact point

over time become as well rounded as I could possibly

be. My journey was I started off as a very immature

head. And I used to say this, you will either

laugh or roll your eyes. I used to say, I don't

have opinions, I have data, and there are implications.

Hard stuff. It's a very immature thing to say,

a very naive thing to say, but that was my mental

map. Told me that's the way the world looked.

None of us see the territory for how it actually

is. We all see through the filters of our own

mental maps. This notion of head, heart, gut

is just the fastest way to get to the basic knowledge

of what the other person's mental map looks like.

So you can better connect and communicate with

them and better know how to pull the right kinds

of value from them. Sounds good. Yeah, very good.

One of the most interesting distinctions here,

Debbie, that I think when I play this out with

audiences, this is where it really raises the

eyebrows and, oh, that's interesting, is let's

imagine you've got a head, a heart, and a gut.

Head, a heart, and a gut walk into a bar. This

is not a joke. This is a illustrative scenario.

And they're trying to make a business decision

or trying to make any kind of major decision

that they're all equally invested in. And the

head says, well, this is the right answer. And

the heart says, no, I think this is the right

answer. And the gut says, no, you're both wrong.

This is clearly the right answer. The problem

isn't just a difference of opinion or a difference

of perspective, although those also are at play.

The problem could very well be that what a head

means when they say right is different than what

a head means when they say right different than

a gut. When a head says this is the right answer,

they mean it's true, logical. supportable. When

a heart says this is the right answer, they mean

it's good, it's desirable, it's beneficial, it's

helpful. When a gut says this is the right answer,

they mean it's valuable, it's useful, it'll move

the needle, it'll keep things rolling. Which

one of those is all three to some degree? And

so understanding how to decode some of the invisible

and implicit implications of even the same language

that is actually meaning to these people is I

find immensely, immensely helpful. Yeah, thank

you. Did you ever hear of the second brain? I

have a book on it. It's your gut. Oh, yeah, sure.

Oh, I have a book on it. It's very that that

I think is really interesting. There are actually

three brains. So the science behind this, which

is exactly what you're speaking to, Debbie, there

are neuronal clusters, as you said. in the gut

that are activated and involved in instinctual

decisions. Likewise, there are the same kinds

of neural clusters in the chest cavity area that

are activated and involved in emotional decision

making. Now, what I don't want you to hear me

saying is reducing these three types of people

to stereotypes. I mean, head, heart, gut is reductive

enough. I'm not saying that it's the logic ones,

the empathy ones, and the instinct ones. It's

a little more complex than that. Empathy, in

particular, is something that is a skill, not

an innate quality and characteristic that only

belongs to certain people. But it is an emotion

simulator. We're not saying that heads are the

non -emotional ones and hearts are the emotional

ones. But it is interesting, to your point, Debbie,

that there's actual science decision -making

science that backs up the fact that we operate

differently and even access different parts of

our biology when we make different kinds of decisions.

And all that we're saying, Blue Dog, as sort

of creators of this model, is that everyone's

going to have defaults and it's helpful to know

what those are so you can give people what they

need. Let me give you, if I can, one more quick

example of how this shows up. I talked about

what they mean. by right is completely different.

We can imagine too, what they're good at is different.

Heads are really good at things like process

and systems and strategy and methods. Arts are

really good at imagining possibilities and generating

enthusiasm and vision, mission, things like that.

And guts are really good at getting things done,

navigating the system, disrupting the system,

maneuvering tactics, et cetera. It's no surprise

then that guts tend to over index at higher levels

of leadership. The more you get things done,

the more in the ranks you grow. Now, what is

most human about this is what each of these head,

heart, gut fundamentally need from others is

also quite different. A head, at the end of the

day, most reductively, needs to feel that their

perspective is valid. That's what they're looking

for. A heart needs to feel that their person

is valued. And a gut... needs to feel that their

path is supported. Now you might say, and you'd

rightly say, everyone needs to feel that their

person is valued. Yes, but none more than hearts.

And frankly, if you're going to give positive

feedback to a head and you value their person,

value their person, they will receive that less

eagerly than if you say, that thing you said

two minutes ago was really super duper smart.

That's sort of a love language for the heads.

Likewise, I've talked to leaders that were gut

leaders that were some of the best people leaders

I've ever worked with. kind and pathetic. But

at the end of the day, what they really want

from the people around them is get on board with

what I'm trying to do because what I'm trying

to do is. And so if we don't know those fundamental

needs, and I've got story upon story that I won't

bore you with here, but we can talk right past

each other and not only not give each other what

we're needing, but actually rob each other of

what we're needing if we don't know those things.

Very true. All very good stuff. Next topic, behavior

systems versus belief systems. What does this

look like day to day? This is a active topic

of conversation at Blue Dog amongst the senior

leadership. We are sort of leads of different

practice areas, and we've been talking quite

a bit over the last even few months around. Chicken

or egg? What comes first and what's more influential

in actual adoption? And that's kind of what we

are talking about here all the time. Behavior

and ways of doing and even ways of thinking are

not just like concepts that float around and

we put them in or we put them on and now they're

ours. We adopt things. We integrate things into

our day -to -day behavior or we don't. We, as

you said, Debbie, we habitualize things or we

don't. and chicken or egg. What's more important,

habitualization and adoption, belief systems

or behavior systems? And I tend to think that

most behavioral science at least directionally

supports or indicates this, that behaviors are

more important in creating an adoption than beliefs.

And moreover, while beliefs will create behaviors.

For sure, something that is overlooked and oftentimes

even more formative and powerful is that behaviors

will create beliefs. And so don't hear me say

you can do without one or the other. But do hear

me say most, not just organizations, but most

human institutions have sort of a unspoken, unchecked

assumption that beliefs create behavior exclusively,

that that's the direction of the line. And I

want to say actually some of the most formative

forces in our lives are behaviors. that start

to create our beliefs or at least they entrench

our beliefs. And you can know that because I'm

sure you've talked to many people and you have

yourself been a person who said they believe

something, but their behavior indicates something

very different. I believe I am a confident strategist,

but I'm up there shaken during the presentation.

That means I really believe something different

and my behavior is showing it. And the more you

can behave, I mean, that's another way to say

fake it till you make it, behave in the direction

you want to believe. the more that belief gets

actually humanly entrenched in our psyche, which

is where it needs to reside for us to truly adopt

any new habit. Yeah, that's interesting. So you

wrote versus indicating that it's the opposite,

not similar. But you explained how one thing

goes into the other and the reason why we have

one thing. Yeah. But the comment that I want

to make is I feel that Sometimes, I guess just

for myself, it can work both ways, because if

I behave a certain way, I might or might not

believe that, that that is a fact of belief,

which really isn't a fact, but to me it is. But

then if I believe something, I might not behave

that way. I might or might not. So to me, that

might depend on not really my personality, but

maybe the way that I feel that day. My mood,

it might not be something that I permanently

believe or don't believe, but maybe there's a

lot of things that might change my decision or

the way that I think. So to me, it could work

both ways. But I always think, too, of the environment.

around me, the people around me. And are they

going to accept what I'm going to say? Are they

going to accept what I believe, what my behavior

is now or is going to be? Okay. Maybe a family

member, like an immediate family member or a

child. So my environment and my community also,

might want to accept that or might not. And I

might believe something or say that I do just

to satisfy my family. Let's say, for example,

I might not believe it or I might not know if

I believe it or not. A behavior is one thing

to me because people can affect my behavior,

of course. But to me, that's a little bit more

deeper into it. But if I believe something, I

might not necessarily believe it. But if the

people around me believe it, and then I might

just say that I believe it for like a hundred

different reasons. Well, I think that actually

is a good example of exactly the distinction

that I'm driving. And to your point a moment

ago, the verses is not about opposed ideas, it's

about distinct ideas. And my provocation is not

at all that it only works one way. It does. These

things work together completely. My provocation

is actually, especially in the corporate world,

there's a whole half of that that is almost entirely

missing. The assumption, often unspoken, but

the assumption is if you just get everyone to

believe the right things and believe in the same

ways, then they will do the behavior you're seeking.

I'm here to tell you behavioral science would

say something different. Behavioral science would

say the belief without the behavior, we can't

really know that that's a belief. And a belief

with the behavior will actually reinforce the

belief. And so I think there's a colloquialism.

You want to know what someone actually believes?

Look at how they behave. Why that's important.

And Debbie, I think this is, you tee this up

quite a bit in the things that you do and the

way that you talk. Incentivized organizations

need to be incentivizing behaviors. as much if

not more as they are reinforcing beliefs. If

the reinforced beliefs, I don't care how many

times you say here are our values and here's

our purpose and here's our all the other belief

systems that an organization will have, doesn't

matter how many times you reference those things

and reinforce those things, if you are not incentivizing

the behaviors that should flow from those things,

then you're leaving it at a concept and concepts

don't actually change. situations, cultures,

et cetera. Concepts don't, behaviors do, quite

to your point. Yeah, I agree. Thank you for that.

Lightning round, biggest misconception about

decision making. I'm actually with a coworker

right now finishing a whole training round decision

making, and it's called the seven ditches of

decision making and how to avoid them. because

I think that's the biggest misconception. People

think, or at least they desire, the right way

to make a decision, or the right ways to make

a decision. And sadly, there is no right or best

or single way to make a decision. But there are,

we think, seven ways to echo. And so if you can

avoid the ditches of decision making, and some

of that is emotional intelligence, some of it

is default thinking, some of it is et cetera.

So there are seven of them, of course. Maybe

that's for another podcast in the future. If

you can avoid the ditches, then oftentimes anywhere

in the road, which can be multiple decisions,

multiple paths, is probably good enough. And

that kind of coincides with this notion that

was really transformative to me when I first

heard it, status ficing. Are you familiar with

that phrase, status ficing? That's great. Most

of us are looking at how we measure the success

of our decisions in terms of like, it has to

be a perfect outcome. It has to be exactly what

I'm looking for. And that is most likely to lead

us to being disappointed, even if we made a good

decision, because almost nothing will work out

exactly perfectly. And so here again, you'll

hear me. say behavioral scientists a lot because

they're kind of my heroes, but behavioral scientists

would say status -ficing, which is a morphine

between satisfying and sufficing, a satisfaction

that is sufficient enough to be a box check.

That's what your measure should be. And if you

take those two things, that there's no one way

to make a decision, but there are some ways to

wreck decisions, And whatever you do, don't look

for perfection. Look for satisficing in your

success metrics. You'll find yourself way happier

with your decisions and much more confident in

your decision making over time. Yeah, that was

good. Thank you. I definitely agree with that.

And to me, that's a solid way. Making a decision

rather than a hundred other ways. Just thinking

about it and making a quick decision, not getting

it through. Well, to that point, I know this

is a lightning round and I'm slowing down the

storm here, but that also is part of our decision

-making training is this head, heart, gut model,

because those are defaults. And you know what?

A gut should know that they're going to feel

most comfortable and most satisfied making a

gut decision. And they're also going to need

to do the limitations of that and the situations

in which that's not the best idea. Meanwhile,

a head. That's me again, needs to know that yes,

a long robustly research pros and cons list can

be helpful. That's the way that I want to make

a decision, but we don't always have time for

that. And so even that know where you lean and

know what you need to watch out for and then

make the decision as fast as possible to your

point. Yes, perfect. Thank you. One prime behavior

shift leaders can try this week. Well, Debbie,

I'm going to steal from you. You had a sort of

opening offer for this that I think is one of

the greatest things I've ever heard for a try

it for a week exercise. So I'm just going to

read the suggestion you had and vehemently agree

with it. Experiment for a week even. I think

you could see results in a week, even better

if you do it for a month. And maybe the heads

out there in the audience would say, let me get

some data for a longer trial period, but treat

every professional interaction as an exchange.

Not as a, I need them to hear this or I need

to get this from them, but Give and take what

do they need from me? What do I need from them

and ask yourself and maybe even ask the other

person very directly what they need in this interaction

to make this successful and then do everything

you possibly can as you said everything feasible

to provide that thing to them and then see see

the difference in and I love you said both of

these Debbie in both outcomes and Relationships.

I love that. I think that's the Wonderful experiment.

I guarantee if everyone listening right now did

that Everyone would see a significant change

in their efficacy and their enjoyment as well.

I love that idea Yeah, and what about doing something

out of the box? doing these things that we're

not familiar with and We don't want to do them

and we don't know there's a fear of the unknown

We don't know if it's going to produce results

and what the outcome is and might work out. It

might not. Yeah. So. But I want to do if I do

an experiment. And you said it exactly the way

that I wrote it. But I want to do an experiment

or try something new. I want to just do it because

if I think and I overthink it and I'm thinking

and thinking, then it just not only I probably

took myself out of it. But I might not get a

positive outcome of it because I'm not focusing

on what it is and what the goal is and what it

really is. I'm just saying, making something

up or just saying, I don't know if it's going

to work or not. And then I'm turning it into

something it's completely not. Yeah. I mean,

interestingly, this is a total aside for fun.

It sounds like, and one can be diagnosed by other

people, but it sounds like you might be a gut.

That sounded like some gut -ish sort of tendencies,

which is interesting. I want to reinforce two

things that you just alluded to. The first is,

and this goes back to the point of this whole

experiment for a week, look, if you want to get

someone on your side, the very best thing you

can do is first get on their side. That is...

every negotiation professional will tell you

that. And so how do you get on someone's side?

Asking questions, putting yourself in their shoes.

You can almost never get someone on your side

without first getting on their side. So that's

just an interesting corollary to this. And then

the second thing that is within something you

just said is there's a myth. This blew my mind

when I first heard this. There's a myth that

people fear change. People don't fear change.

They fear loss. And the problem is times of change

represent greater likelihoods of loss. So here

again, if you are in a tense situation, that

is still going to be an exchange. But you put

yourself in the other person's shoes and you

see fear operating. Maybe it's because they're

self promoting or self protecting. And that's

what we do when we're afraid. You see fear operating.

Don't look at that and say, oh, that person is

behaving badly, say that person is sending a

signal that there's a fear here. What is that

fear? How can I help them with that fear? How

can I come alongside them and help actually manage

that fear? And I'll tell you what, that is a

really empowering truth for both you and the

other person, because sitting there and saying

people fear change, there's nothing you can do

about that. Granting gut through it, but knowing

that people actually fear loss, that's something

we can do. Something with both with and for each

other and I think that's really powerful Yeah,

so just one closing comment that I want to make

so we talk about the workplace in my podcast

but in a lot of them I Transfer that what you

do and how you think and how you act the workplace

can go into your personal life, your home life,

into your community, your friends, your neighbors.

And I think this was a discussion that we just

had that can work both ways. And we just talked

about it generally. We didn't necessarily say

one time, I think we did during this whole podcast

that it was about the workplace, different things.

So if you're a listener, maybe you could relate

to this, maybe not. But Just think about if you

want to continue to listen to it, just think

about where that's going to relate to you, whether

it's the workplace or your home specific situation

you're in. Because this, I think, can work with

anything. It doesn't matter what it is. Because

all of the things we're talking about are human

constructs and concepts. I couldn't agree more,

Debbie. And in fact, like I said, I just had

a training on this exact model, this head, heart,

gut model this afternoon. And invariably and

inevitably people say, oh, this explains a lot

about my marriage or my partnership. We had one

person tell us stories like I'm a head. My husband

is a gut and my daughter is a heart. And this

actually helps unlock why we are oftentimes in

completely different directions. It's not because

we can't come together on things. It's because

we are actually viewing the world through different

maps and different lenses. And that's actually

a good thing. That's a good and valuable thing

if we harness it correctly. So yeah, I couldn't

agree more. Yeah, that was good. Thank you. Is

there anything you would like to say in closing?

It was just a real pleasure talking to you and

thanks for giving me a little bit of a space

to share some of these things that I really,

really love a lot and really passionate about.

Yeah, sure. Thank you for being on the show.

How can they get in touch with you? BlueDogDesign

.com is a great way to see kind of the full spectrum

of the things we do as an organization. Eric,

eric at BlueDogDesign .com is my direct email

if there's something you're interested in hearing

or learning more about. And in fact, Debbie,

I'll maybe shoot you a few images, screen grabs

from the presentations so that you could post

them up for your listeners. And that way, as

they're kind of listening, they could have a

little bit of visual reference material, which

I know always helps in learning. Perfect. Thank

you for being on the show. I appreciate it. Thank

you