Charisma, Trauma & Leadership: Unlocking Psychological Safety with Richard Reid

Welcome to the behavioral profit show where business

meets behavior. I'm your host Debbie Longo, executive

behavioral coach. And each week we dive into

mindset leadership strategies and cultural behaviors

that drive higher performance and greater profits

with you leading a team and building a business.

This is just the space to learn how human behavior

fuels business success. We have a very special

guest today, Richard Reed. Richard, would you

like to tell your story a little bit? Thank you

very much for being on the show. Hi, Debbie.

Thanks for having me today. So I'm a psychologist

by trade. I'm also a leadership coach and an

organizational consultant. So I really help.

individuals and organisations that are going

from either they're having difficulties or they

just want to up the game and improve their performance.

So all of those kinds of things. I guess the

areas I particularly specialise in are things

like resilience and trauma, but also things like

organisational well -being. And then the other

thing is charisma. So I've recently just released

a book talking about charisma. It's called Charisma

Unlocked. It's all about how we connect with

people, how we use our verbal, non -verbal communication

in order to get the best from interactions with

people. Okay, so I have a few questions here.

The first question is background and expertise.

Richard has over 20 years experience as a psychologist,

coach, and wellbeing consultant. What inspired

you to pursue this career path and how did your

journey begin? Yeah, so I came to it a little

bit later. So I originally worked within IT as

a consultant and didn't really enjoy the technical

part of it. It was really the people part that

I enjoyed. And I took a year out from work to

go traveling around the world to decide what

I wanted to do. And towards the end of that trip,

which was about 12 months in length, I met a

well psychiatrist when I was in Patagonia and

we ended up sharing a tent and we were talking

about what we were doing while we were traveling.

And I mentioned that I was looking to change

careers and he said, have you ever thought about

training as a psychologist? So I started to look

into it when I got back to the UK, started training

in that. And eventually I made the transition

to being a psychologist, working with individuals.

And the area of London that I was working at

that time, a lot of people I was working with

were owners of businesses or very senior in businesses

and they could see the value that they were getting

from working with me on a one -to -one basis

and they start to introduce me into their organizations.

And that's when I start to get more involved

and so the consultants who work and looking at

how it is that organizations can prosper and

thrive as well. Very nice. So you just jumped

right into it. You had that opportunity and it

worked out great for you. And then you learned

a little bit more than you didn't know from the

beginning. Absolutely. So you kind of learn as

you go. And for me, it's always been about sort

of diving in there and learning through experience.

Very, very good. I like that because in this.

podcast, the show that I do, one of the reasons

why I do it is I do all different people from

all different industries having to do with business.

So I want to get as much of a variety as I can

because more that I get than somebody goes on

a podcast and they have that same type of experience

or that same industry, then they can really relate.

to it, and then they can say, this gentleman

did this, this woman did this, and I can do that

too. So it's a matter of inspiration. Some of

them are negative, but I'm trying to help people

that might need help. So it's good. I did a few

that people came out of the other side. It's

always good to show people that there are opportunities

that exist. And those opportunities are always

there. It's just a matter of whether I want to

take it or not, because you didn't have to take

it. I didn't have to take any opportunity that

I had in my future. And everything worked out

for me. It worked out for you, too. It takes

a bit of courage, because if you wait for things

to be exactly perfect, you could be waiting a

long time. It's making those sort of calculated

risks, isn't it? Yeah. It's just a gamble. That's

just how business is. The next question, trauma

and resilience. You specialize in trauma, resilience,

and psychological safety. Can you share a pivotal

moment in case study that shaped your approach

to these areas? I think when I started out doing

what I was doing, I guess that's a lot of people

do when they start their career. You're very

sort of idealistic about how things work. When

I was working with individuals or with organizations

thinking, right, this is how we need to tackle

it. And the people that I'm dealing with, they're

all on board. They're all here surely because

they want to work through these things. But what

I found was that, yes, some people were there

because it's absolutely things that they wanted

to address. Other people were there. because

it was a last resort, or they were there and

they were lacking in confidence that the process

would work, or they were there because they'd

been told to be there. And so this is where,

when you work with individuals, it's really important

to kind of recognise where they are, rather than

making assumptions that everybody's there for

the same reasons. And that's really where the

psychological safety element comes in. When we're

talking with people, it's about creating that

space and that dynamic that means that people

feel confident. to acknowledge what they're genuinely

thinking or feeling. Because when you understand

more about what they're genuinely thinking or

feeling, even if it's not necessarily what you

want to hear, it gives you something tangible

to start to work with. Whereas if you're trying

to pitch something at a level that people aren't

ready for, trying to move things along quicker

than they're ready for, then you get that resistance,

you get that hesitation, and you don't get the

buy into what you're doing. So with everything

that I do, whether it's working with an individual

to overcome some psychological difficulty or

whether it's organizational change, it's really

about recognizing What's the appetite for change?

What are the resistance to change? And how is

it that you can work with people to create an

environment where they feel confident to acknowledge

that and they feel you're going to validate and

support that? So that's really been the basis

of everything that I've done. And I guess a lot

of the work that I do around resilience is about

making people feel comfortable acknowledging

mistakes, acknowledging difficulties, because

I think when we acknowledge them, again, it's

an opportunity for learning. So rather than beating

people up about mistakes or people feeling guilty

about their mistakes, when we can absorb those

into the learning, whether that's with an individual

or with an organization, then you accelerate

the opportunities for growth and improvement.

That's one of the things I do too, because I

recognize that it's a process. So when I work

with people, I want to make sure that I go slow

and before I do something right when I'm about

to do it, that they fully understand and then...

They know beforehand like a few days before a

week before and that gives them food for thought

so that way it's give them time. To think about

it and to adjust to it that way when we get to

the scenario or process then they're ready for

it but if they're not then they're not. Can i

just say okay when then we move on those are

very good things to talk about. because these

are just, to me, everyday issues that people

have. Totally. High -profit clients. You've worked

with organizations like the London Underground,

the City of London Police, and the Witness Protection

Program. What unique challenges do these environments

present, and how do you address them? I guess

in some ways this points back to what we've just

spoken about. I think in those kind of environments,

you've got people dealing with really serious

issues. with issues that often generate trauma

responses. But I guess even when people are struggling,

they quite match our environments. People don't

want to acknowledge when they've got a problem.

And when they're coming to you, it's very rarely

is it voluntarily. A lot of times it's because

the wheels have really fallen off or they're

being told, you've got to go and do this because

there's a performance issue, you're going to

lose your job and it's related to something that

may have happened within the work environment.

So again, it's really about, I guess it's about

motivational interviewing. It's about recognising

again where people are, making them feel comfortable

to acknowledge where they are with things. But

also, I guess as part of that, normalizing their

experience. When people are going through things

like severe trauma, which is often the case when

you're in the police or you're working with the

underground, there's all kinds of things that

happen. The difficulty of the traumatic experience,

but then there's also the stigma around it. People

don't like to speak up when they feel they've

got a psychological problem. Or maybe they're

having symptoms that they can't explain. And

there's a level of anxiety that that generates.

So sometimes even just getting to acknowledge

what's going on for them in an authentic way,

validating their experience, and also normalizing

it. So actually this is normal for where you

are in the process. It helps to take some of

the anxiety out of it. And again, when you can

build that rapport with people, that provides

a solid platform for them to start to make change.

If you don't have that rapport and that understanding,

then you're on sort of a shaky ground. Yeah,

I agree. These people they have like you said

we talked about that in the question before and

sometimes like in my experience if somebody has

that. For a while it's which lot of times that's

the case it's difficult to really get out of

that so it's a little bit more challenging it's

not a big deal but. Then to work with just somebody

who has a problem or business owner or whatever.

Just have minor things. Then people come to me

and they say that therapy doesn't work. They

went to therapy for these things and we have

talk therapy and stuff here. Yeah, we they went

to therapy for these things and it doesn't work

and a lot of people seek alternate therapy for

these types of things and. like coaches and all

different. There's tons of alternate therapies

besides like a regular therapist, like a talk

therapist. This is the challenge, isn't it? When

you're struggling, it's probably the worst time

to be trying to understand how it all works,

isn't it? It's a broad church coaching and therapies,

and there's a lot of different types of as you

say. And if you don't know much about it, it's

not a great time to be starting to research it

when you're already feeling vulnerable. Often

you are dealing with people who've had these

sort of experiences and it doesn't work. So again,

you're dealing with that level of resistance

and you've got to sort of get them on board before

you do anything constructive. I agree. As a charisma

coach, you help people unlock their full potential.

What are the key traits of charismatic individuals

and the charisma be learned or it is? in me.

Yeah, so I think with charisma, there's a lot

of sort of myths around it. A lot of people think

that charisma is something you're either born

with or you're not born with it. A lot of people

think charisma is just about being the loudest,

most entertaining person in the room. And it

can be about that. But actually, based on my

experience, based upon the work and the research

that I've done, actually, I firmly believe that

anybody can develop their charisma and actually

charisma comes in lots of shapes and sizes. So

even if you're quite a quiet, retiring person,

there can be things about your uniqueness that

make you charismatic. And a lot of the time,

we hide the best parts of ourselves because they're

different to other people. And as a result, we

don't allow ourselves the opportunity to validate

those and see that actually people respond well

to it. So part of the work that I do is about

helping people to recognize their uniqueness,

get more confident with leaning into that and

showing that to the outside world. And it's really

about polishing the edges of that. So all of

us, however charismatic you might regard yourself

as being, there's always room for improvement

in terms of your verbal and your non -verbal

communication. The biggest thing is how we manage

our internal world. If you're not aware of and

able to manage your internal emotions, you can

have all the skills and techniques in the world

but you're going to apply them at the wrong times,

you're not going to have the spare mental capacity

to recognise what's going on for other people

or indeed what it is that you're giving out to

other people. So first of all, building that

solid foundation of managing your own emotions

gives you capacity to make choices. What does

this situation need? What parts of myself do

I need to bring to bear to get the best possible

outcomes for both myself and the other people

that are involved in this interaction? So it's

really, a lot of it is around emotional intelligence

and communication, really. I never heard of that

term, charisma coach. I like it. Yeah, you know,

it's kind of one of those things. It's kind of

people either love it or hate it, but it definitely

sparks a response from people. Similar to the

last few questions that we spoke about. If I

want to recognize my full potential, to me that's

something that has to come from within for the

most part. I can kind of maybe have somebody

else as an influence or a mentor, but it really

creates really a strong willingness and to learn

how to really look search deep with inside myself.

in order for me to really know what my full potential

is, and that's only determined by me. Absolutely.

So you can't have somebody else impose that and

create that for you. Somebody like a coach can

help you to shine a light on what it is, but

it's only going to resonate when you recognize

it for yourself. And that's where your motivation

is going to come from. When you recognize what

your brand is and what you aspire for your brand

to be, then you're going to have the confidence

and the willingness to want to lead into that.

And the coach is there really just to support

you in that and hold you accountable for making

those changes. Exactly. But my view is my clients

tell me most of the time, they dictate a lot

to me what they want to do, what they're thinking,

because I can only go by what they say. I can't

really find. Exactly. It's a partnership, isn't

it? It's not about one side dictating the process.

And I think a lot of the time, We inherently

know when we're not fulfilling our potential

because we feel frustrated. We think, well, look,

I've seen myself do this another time. I've done

it really well. Or something tells me I'm capable

of more than I'm doing at the moment. So a lot

of clients know that. And it's the frustration

with the gap between what they see and what they

experience day to day. And again, that's kind

of where a coach can come in to help them bridge

that gap. Charisma is a tool for psychological

safety. You often highlight the link between

charisma and psychological safety. How can leaders

use charismatic traits like presence, warmth

and confidence to increase environments where

team members feel safe to speak up and take risks?

Charisma is a really important component of psychological

safety. And again, when we talk about charisma,

we tend to think about what about it has been

a performance that we're We're the brightest

light in the room. We're dominating the conversation.

And that can make you impressive, but it doesn't

actually create safety for other people. And

you see this with a lot of leaders, charismatic

or dominant leaders, is that they are the loudest

dominant voice in the room, and it cries other

people out. And the risk with that is that you

don't allow other people to fulfill their potential,

but also you create an echo chamber. People end

up telling you what they think you want to hear.

And the risk with that is people start to disengage.

People feel less capable. So it doesn't matter

how capable you are, if you feel you're not being

recognized, you go backwards in effect. So you

want to be charismatic as a leader. There's lots

of things you can do. But I think the first thing

to do is to show humility and curiosity for other

people's positions. So it doesn't matter how

impressive you might be, show an interest in

other people's positions. Even if you don't necessarily

understand them or you think that they're flawed,

that curiosity makes people more confident. It

makes them more able to express themselves in

a way that actually you might learn something.

And it's not just about listening, it's about

the kind of questions we ask. When we ask open

-ended questions, we're encouraging people to

say more and to expand. So either we can change

our view or we can find a way of aligning their

view and our views. Or sometimes we can then

help them to better understand where their thinking

is flawed. But one of the ways in which we do

that is also to create space. So when somebody

says something, not to immediately dive in. So

sometimes a pause is really useful because some

of the things people are saying, they're saying

them for the first time. So because it's been

in their head, it's the first time they've said

it out loud, they may not be fully confident

what they're saying. They might want to qualify

or change what they've said. Whereas if we immediately

hold them to account for the first thing that

comes out of their mouth, then they may panic.

They may not fully express themselves. We may

not fully understand what it is that they're

saying. So slowing these conversations down through

the kind of questions we ask, through pausing,

speaking more slowly, all of these things make

people feel more confident. feel more capable

and feel more able to speak up when they have

different ideas, when they don't understand,

when they've made a mistake. And again, how we

react to those things is really, really important.

If we chastise people that we dismissive, they're

not going to feel confident speaking up again.

So being supportive, being patient is really,

really important. And being humble, telling other

people when we've made a mistake, telling other

people when we don't understand, asking the people

for their view before we offer our view, all

of these things. elevate other people and create

a more safe environment for people to express

what they're thinking that may actually change

our thinking or actually create extra innovation

within the organization in which we work, challenging

that status quo. Yeah, so I want as much information

as I can from the client because that will allow

me to help them more. So it's understanding before

you sort of start making judgment. And that the

psychological safety is important because not

only do I get the presence, the warmth and the

confidence, right? That will increase my chances

of being able to help the person. in the best

way that I can. Absolutely. My gifts go way beyond

what anybody knows and what anybody can vision,

even me. But I'm only able to get that and use

that until I get a lot of information. So that's

the thing. I can't use my abilities if I don't

get enough information or about their goals and

whatever, basically whatever is going on in their

minds. And that's why these things are so important.

Absolutely. Because otherwise you end up offering

suggestions and ideas that may not resonate with

them. And as a consequence, that's when you get

resistance or when people don't fully commit.

Charisma in hierarchical or high stress settings.

In high stakes field law enforcement or corporate

leadership, authority can sometimes stifle open

communication. How do you coach leaders to balance

their natural authority with the kind of charisma

that fosters psychological safety? Yeah, so I

guess this is a follow on for the last question

in some respects. I think some organizations

naturally lend themselves to sort of command

and control. You know, police enforcement is

a classic example of that. And it's not about

relinquishing that. because it's tried and tested,

it works. In extreme circumstances, you do just

need to tell people what to do because things

need to happen quickly. You don't want to debate

around it. But I think that doesn't have to be

all the time. Not everything is urgent. And so

I think this is where it's really important for

anybody, but particularly leaders, to be flexible

in their approach. Yes, it might be that your

environment lends itself to an authoritarian

way of managing. But it doesn't mean that that

has to happen every minute of every day. And

so actually, if we're flexible, it means that

we can start to use different aspects of our

personalities, different ways of interacting,

depending on what the circumstances demands.

So if it's urgent, absolutely, you just want

to tell people what to do. But sometimes it might

be about being innovative. It might be about

generating ideas. And then you might want a different

approach. And this is where creating psychological

safety is really important because you're effectively

giving people permission to speak up and say,

well, how about we do it this way? So we need

some of that, but clearly it needs to be kind

of horses for courses. You don't want, if you're

in the military, you don't want to having a debate

about what to do when you're in the middle of

a battle. You just want somebody to tell you

and you do it. But that's not all the time. So

having an organization or a team that understands

the parameters when it's okay to challenge and

when it's important to just follow the rules

is really, really important. And that comes about.

through creating a regular rhythm to your activities

so people can instinctively understand when it's

okay to challenge, when it's okay to just toe

the line. But also, if I'm in corporate leadership

or any type of position that I am advancing in

or I'm not familiar with, because at some point

I will grow into it, but I'm not born, I don't

go right into it. So it takes maybe a long time

and then that opens my ability to want more and

desire more for myself and help myself more and

also to me that's a good way to have open communication

because we go back to I want to be more of a

person than what I am. I want to achieve bigger

goals for myself than what I have now, or maybe

the goals that I have are not good enough. I

just want to keep going higher and higher. All

these little things that we've just been talking

about help this in all different ways, but it

really depends upon what's attractive to the

client. That's why, like I say, I do all these

different things, podcasts with all these different

industries and people talk about different things,

because there's got to be somebody out there

that the conversation that we're having now is

attractive to somebody out there. And they could

say, I can identify with that. I can relate to

that. So we're giving all different aspects of

Very Good. The dark side of charisma can sometimes

be misused to manipulate or dominate rather than

empower. How do you help leaders ensure their

charisma is authentic and aligned with creating

psychologically safe spaces, not just compliance?

Yes, I think part of the danger with charisma,

this is what we're talking about, we're talking

about dark charisma, is that it's often a start

of a substance that actually people They talk

a good fight, but they can't back it up. So when

I'm working with leaders or anybody in fact,

it's about how you present yourself. Absolutely,

it's the perception you create, but it's also

you've got to have those fundamental technical

or professional skills to back that up. You can't

just rely on your personality. So I think that's

the first thing to say in terms of dark charisma.

But dark charisma really isn't charisma in the

truest sense because it's not actually interested

in creating mutually beneficial outcomes. It's

all about, how can I present myself in the way

that gets what I want from you? And so it tends

to be quite short -termist. When we want to charm

somebody because there's something they've got

that we want, then we're very charismatic. But

actually, when there are no longer interests

to us, then we show our true colours because

we're not actually interested in other people.

There are lots of examples of this in politics

and history where people have led other people

down very dangerous paths. because they follow

them, believing those people address all of their

hopes or concerns. And actually that's backfired

because in a lot of these circumstances, those

individuals have only been manipulating people

in order to accentuate their own desires and

aspirations. So the kind of charisma that we

teach people is about creating these mutually

beneficial outcomes. So I'm not just generating

outcomes that suit me, but I'm thinking about

the longer term prospects of our relationship.

How is it that we can both get as much of what

we need? as possible from these interactions

that we have. So there's a positive to it, believe

it or not. Dark charisma benefits the individuals

who are manifesting that, but it does often reap

benefits for other people in the short term.

But the allure of it tends to wear off because

people promise things that they can't deliver

on in the long term, but also People create echo

chambers around them. They create acolytes. And

the risk with that is that people no longer challenge

people to behave. And all of us have to be aware

of our behavior because when it's left unchecked,

it can take us into all kinds of areas that perhaps

weren't our initial intention. Again, we can

look at figures from history to see that actually,

the more influence they got, the more their behaviors

became more extreme and the bigger risk that

they ultimately meant for the people. Very, very

good. I really like this. Okay, so Book Insights,

your latest book, Charisma Unlocked, was published

recently. What inspired you to write it and what's

one actionable tip from the book that listeners

can apply immediately? So the motivation for

the book was it's really a culmination of the

last 20 years' work. So articles I've written,

experiences of having worked with people from

a broad range of particularly sort of professional

backgrounds. So it's really sort of bringing

all of those different bits of learning experience

and research together in a way that is hopefully

really accessible for people. So it's not a book

you necessarily have to read from cover to cover.

There are sections related to different topics

and different scenarios. So you can sort of dip

in and dip, and it's very sort of practical,

actionable tips. And I guess if there was one

thing that I would encourage people to take away

from this book, it's almost so obvious that we

don't do it. And it's really this idea of showing

curiosity for other people. And you think about

lots of different environments in which we find

ourselves, whether it's networking, a business

environment, whether it's meeting somebody at

a party and having a conversation with them.

A lot of the time, we feel under pressure to

perform. So in other words, to talk at people,

to ask people, you know, sort of stuck questions.

What do you do for a living? Those kinds of things.

And actually, when we show curiosity, when we

show genuine interest in people when we ask open

-ended questions, when we do some of the things

we've spoken about earlier, such as allowing

space for people to express themselves, drilling

down more into the feelings that sit behind people's

preferences or concerns. All of these things

not only help us to better understand how somebody

else ticks, but it takes the pressure off us

in terms of conversations. Conversations don't

dry up and actually then gives us material to

demonstrate interest, to validate other people,

and to further people's interests and motivations.

So again, we're aligning ourselves with people.

We're making ourselves useful to people. And

it's by giving out to other people that ultimately

we create those longer -term sustainable relationships

that also really benefit for us. So it's avoiding

the short -termism and it's avoiding this talking

out people. It's talking with people and creating

something fresh in terms of our interactions

with them. So you took all of your past experiences

and knowledge and put it in this book, which

probably a lot of stuff we just talked about

in the previous questions. And that's what I

want to do too, because I have so much experience.

I have 24 years experience in coaching, executive

life coaching. I want to put it in a book and

I have it in my brain. It's very easy to do,

you know, it's just a matter of getting it on

paper. It's finding the time, isn't it? Definitely

recommend it because it's really interesting.

When you start writing it down for other people

to read, Number one, it's reaffirming. Wow, I

didn't know I knew so much. But number two, when

you're trying to explain these things to other

people, it also helps you to really sort of crystallize

what you already know and to make it sharper.

So definitely really rewarding experience. I

definitely recommend when you have the time to

do that. OK, next question, personal growth.

What's one lesson you've learned from your own

personal and professional growth that you wish

you'd learn earlier in your career? Yeah, so

I'd say it's really about, and this is sort of,

I guess, the work of Carol Dweck. It's embracing

this idea of the great mindset. So in other words,

most of us, me included, our natural response

is when we have setbacks or when we're criticized,

is to be defensive. It's either to beat ourselves

up about things or to push back when people are

giving us feedback or to actively avoid feedback

in the first place. And actually what I've found

is that as uncomfortable as it can be, embracing

those things actually accelerates your learning,

accelerates your progress. When you acknowledge

your fallibility, but you don't beat yourself

up about it, you pick yourself up and say, how

can I learn from this? You fast track your development.

And the more that you do that, the more you embrace

the idea of learning from setbacks, the more

you embrace people's feedback, actually, it doesn't

hurt as much. You get the value from it without

necessarily... There's the same level of negative

impact that you do when you're trying to avoid

these things or you try and push back on them.

So really sort of harnessing that growth mindset.

What can I learn from this setback? What can

I learn from this feedback is really, really

important. So that's really the thing that I'd

encourage people to reflect on from today. And

also the big thing, because I do very, a lot

of times it turns into very inner work. So it's

really just a process. So because I did something

in the past and then I learned from it, that

triggers me to do another thing. And then and

then I learned from that thing. And then that

triggers me to do another thing, whether it's

a lesson that I've learned or a goal that I want

to accomplish or maybe just a thought. that I

have. One thought triggers another. I mean, there's

so many examples of this. Absolutely. It's a

catalyst, isn't it? The more we do these things,

the more it becomes a natural way of behaving.

And that's just my opportunity to grow in my

life and in my mindset and evolve. That's what

it's all about, as far as I'm concerned. It's

about evolving, isn't it? And growing. Just like

the human race grows, evolves. So each decade

or each century, We're completely different.

If we were the same, then it would be a big problem.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the way that things should

be. Right. We can't be like that. And it's the

same thing with the individual person, which

is really how it starts anyway. Future goals,

looking ahead, what's the next big project or

goal you're excited about and how does it align

with your mission? Yeah, so it's the next big

project really, two things. One is launching

some workshops around charisma around the globe,

working with individuals and groups of people,

so we're going to be launching and promoting

that. And then another book towards the end of

the year, and this book will be around what we

call the corporate athlete, is how can you as

an individual within a business, again, maximise

your potential? So that's building on things

like psychological resilience, there'll be elements

of charisma in there, there'll be elements of

how you engage and elevate other people. So it's

all about create this positive wave. So all the

time, but we and the people we're coming to contact

with are working more towards achieving our peak

performance and our maximum potential. Very nice.

I like it. And that's really what my goal is.

And I think most coaches and anybody that tries

to help anybody, I think that's what their goal

is, is to get more and more positive every time

you talk to the person, every session. And that

knows, first of all, it knows to me that I'm

doing my job. That's ultimately what I want.

And then knowing that we don't know if the person

is going to be at that certain space at that

time, which really nobody knows because nobody's

a psychic. And that's the bottom line. These

are all very, very good things that we spoke

about. They're very positive. And I really hope

that somebody can get. Something out of it whether

it's just one or two sentences that we said it

doesn't have to be everything in the question

it doesn't have to be a whole topic. If you pull

out one or two sentences the listener from this

podcast if they pull out one or two sentences

and they say this definitely has to do with me

then they can they know that they can be help

that's the whole thing with it. So, would you

like to say anything in closing and how can they

get in touch with you? Well, I just want to say

thank you for having me on the show today. As

you say, I'll be really pleased if even just

one or two people can get some value from today's

conversation. That would be fantastic for me.

But if anybody wants to find anything more about

me or the work that I do, you can see my website

address on my background here. It's www .richard

-rede .com. Very nice. Okay. And are you on social

media also? Yeah, you can also find me on LinkedIn.

So go and just look for me under that name, Richard

Reed, and you'll be able to find me. OK, and

you don't have a podcast. You just do guest.

Yes. Yeah, that's another thing. Planes to launch

a podcast later in the year, but not not right

now. Yeah, OK. So if you're listening and you

want to have Richard as your guest on your podcast,

then definitely get in touch with them, because

I really enjoyed this conversation and it was

good. So I hope somebody can get something out

of it. Thanks, Debbie. Okay, so thank you very

much.