From Ticketing Chaos to Fan-First Drops: Michael Dodsworth of Fanfare on Building Fair, Hype-Proof Launches

Welcome back to the behavioral profit, the podcast

where we decide. the human behaviors that turn

hype into measurable growth. I'm your host, Debbie

Longo, executive behavioral coach. Today's guest,

Michael Doddsworth, founder and CEO of Fanfare,

the platform fixing the chaos of high stakes

product launches. After two decades rescuing

brands and artists from midnight meltdowns, crash

servers, and bot infested queues, Michael built

a fair play system that delivers unforgettable

launches for fans and lawyers. loyalty -driven

growth for brands. Get ready for battle -tested

lessons from the front lines of high tech and

customer experience. Good afternoon, Michael.

Welcome to the show. Is there anything you would

like to add to that intro? No, that's great.

It's great to be here. Perfect. Thank you. So

I have a few topics. The first topic is how launch

disasters inspired fanfare and taught us exactly

what not to do. Absolutely. So the origin story

for me and for fanfare comes out of frustration

and it's frustration that I'm sure we've all

felt. So I came through the live events ticketing

space. The last company I was at was trying to

go up against the likes. of Ticketmaster, those

huge incumbents that we see who kind of have

a monopoly on live event ticketing. And one of

the things that really frustrated me with live

event ticketing is whenever you go to one of

these shows, it feels like you're paying a tax

every time you enter one of these processes.

We've all been there with our multiple tabs open,

staring at a spinner. You're in this queue for

four hours. Don't leave your desk. It's a terrible

consumer experience. And then the frustration

of seeing all of those tickets go on a secondary

site for 3x the price, 10x the price sometimes.

And having spent some time trying to address

that problem, understanding how painful it is

for a vendor like Ticketmaster to try and get

their arms around this problem. You have this

huge spike in traffic. You've created this huge

incentive for people to come in and try and scoop

up those tickets so they can sell them on a secondary

market. And that leads to this, this horrible

situation that we kind of all expect to happen

when we try and buy tickets for something, whenever

we try and get that scarce item, whether it's

a switch to, or the highly hyped item, like sneaker

drops, for example, you see this all the time

and it's, it's frustrating kind of here to tell

you there's a better way. There is definitely

a way of fixing this problem and doing it in

a way that's fair in a way that's transparent.

and a way that you can build up loyalty and fandom

for your brand and not frustrate your long suffering

customers sometimes. I think that a lot of times,

even for myself, because I've bought a lot of

tickets, all kinds of tickets, concert tickets,

show tickets, at Ticketmaster. And it was different

when I was going, when I was younger. We would

go to the actual venue and buy the tickets at

the venue So you wouldn't pay the fees to ticketmaster,

but obviously I don't think we could do that

now What I'm getting out of this is that a lot

of times and I know this I've recognized this

over the years as I've been going to shows and

different things is that there's layers to this.

So you have the band, then you have the venue

and then the employees that work for the band.

And then there's the setup of the show. And then

it is probably like 10 layers before it gets

to ticket master. And now ticket master now is

going to sell the tickets to the public. Everybody

is Crews involved in this this employees. So

everybody needs to get paid. And you see like

a lot of the Ticketmaster gets a bad reputation

for multiple reasons. But one of them is those

fees that we all see and understanding from the

other side of it. These aren't necessarily Ticketmaster

levied fees. These are from the promoter, from

the venue, from like Ticketmaster is taking is

the full guy for a lot of these. other parties

that are adding fees on top of it. So that's

definitely an issue with ticketing. And I think

that's something that transparency around those

different fees and where they're coming from,

who they're going to, I think would help with

that. And I think certainly just showing you

where those fees are and how they've been applied.

Definitely makes a big difference. I know they

used to be rolled in and you had no idea like

the tickets were just $300 and you would see

a convenience fee, which seemed very inconvenient

and things like that. But what we're really focused

is on is just the process that you go through

to try and get some of these things. The painful

multi -hour queue that you join to try and get

these things where you're just staring at a machine.

You can't leave your chair just in case you get

through and that feeling like You have been people

are coming in and they're grabbing tickets ahead

of you, even though you're a real fan of whoever

it is. And they're doing it through means that

are kind of nefarious. They've worked around

the system in some way. And Ticketmaster is just

is is allowing them through or is not protecting

the process as much as they should. And then

that causes all kinds of issues on the other

side. So absolutely seeing it from different

sides. I've definitely seen. The issues around

availability of tickets too, which is often venues

and teams will cede some of their tickets out

to brokers. So often you're competing over a

very small bucket of tickets where you think

the whole venue just went on sale. So surely

there's 50 ,000 tickets for that particular day.

And that's not true. Some of those tickets went

to other people to try and ease down the risk.

that the team is taking or the venue is taking

or the promoter is taking. So sometimes there's

a very small bucket of tickets actually left

when it goes on sale. Next topic is what we learn

trying to be Ticketmaster. Like I say, I don't

think Ticketmaster is high on anyone's list of

favorite companies. They generally don't do well

in those kind of surveys for good reason. But

I think what I learned through this process,

a company called Rival is It's a really hard

problem to get your arms around. There's all

kinds of different parties involved. Even ticketing

a simple sports event is incredibly complex.

And what we've seen with Ticketmaster is just

this kind of accumulation of debt, like organizational

debt, technical debt, and it means they can't

really move quickly in any particular direction.

And there's no real strong motivator for them

to do that either. Like I say, they have an enormous

chunk of the market. There's no real competitors

out there, even though they try. And that means

that they don't really have to innovate and they

don't have to move the products forward in any

way. So we were actually acquired right at the

start of the pandemic by Ticketmaster. And one

of the things that frustrated me through that

time is essentially all of the traffic is now

gone from your site. Like no one's buying tickets

to live events because all the live events have

shut down. now would be a perfect time to try

and take on some of these large chunks of debt

that you've accumulated over time, to make the

process better, to make the consumer experience

better, to try and make the platform better.

That's not what they invested in. That, for me,

was a frustrating moment. And that, for me, shows

that there's no real incentive for them to improve

things. And you really have to just kind of go

after them if you want to make any meaningful

improvement to that process. For me, it's about

a lot of times to trying to Get into read the

relation kind of of what you're saying. Are we

managing and using the resources that we have

for our business to their greatest ability and

using our brain instead of worrying about who's

going to get the deep pockets, what we're going

to get out of that to me, which is like greed,

money, power. So that might be hopefully similar

to what you're referring here. And also I was

talking a lot in my past podcast about the pandemic

and a recession. and different ways that businesses

were struggling and they went out of business

and stuff and they filed bankruptcy. It didn't

have to be like that because the mind controls

and we could use this in this situation. We could

use it any situation, but the mind controls what

I am going to do, what my next move is. And that

translates, it could be. one of the things into

behavior. It could be my thinking and negativity

and all these different things. There's a lot

of things that that it has to do with. But if

I have too many outside forces trying to take

over, trying to control my business, giving me

opinions, giving me advice, there are so many

different examples of this. I want to try to

limit that. I don't want that to get into my

head and involved in my business too much, because

then it becomes TMI, too much information. And

then it becomes information overload. And that

is gonna be a big problem. And then you're gonna

see that anything could happen and you don't

know what's gonna be next. And that's gonna be

a big problem. It can turn into that. I've worked

at a couple of large companies, a couple of small

companies, a couple of medium -sized companies.

And I think what I feel with incumbents, like

the people who have a good chunk of market share,

is large number of people, established products,

and a good understanding of the market. They

tend to be groupthink and incentives that, for

me, are not set up for trying to improve the

customer experience in many ways. there's some

protection of resources or there's some protection

of existing, like there's all kinds of things

that get folded in that are not really moving

anything forward in any way. In fact, there's

some risk aversion and desire to keep things

just as they are. So that's why I think smaller,

more nimble companies, if a customer has some

issue with fanfare, like I hear about it immediately,

I'm so close to the customers, they will just

jump on the call. and shout about whatever it

is is going wrong in that moment. But I also

hear the good sides, too. When you're a large

company like that, you're so far removed from

those customers that you can, I think, be disconnected

from their issues and their frustrations. And

that's, I think, not a good thing. Definitely

see that with more and more of these large incumbents

as they tend to ossify and not really move things

forward. So that's how I feel about. ticketmaster

to is I don't think there's any real strong incentive

to move things forward right now. And like I

say, it's a giant organization and they've just

built up all of this kind of organizational debt

that makes it hard for them to move in any direction.

The next topic is inside the high pressure world

of ticketing and how we built for the world's

most coveted events, the new rules of experimental

commerce. Yeah, I think. One of the things that

we always talked about Arrival was we talked

to some of the teams that we were working with.

It wasn't just about buying tickets or selling

tickets to fans. It was about crafting an experience.

You're going with your kids to watch a Dodgers

game. There's all kinds of things folded into

that. There's the Arrival. There's the actual

sitting down. There's maybe getting signed merch.

There's all kinds of things that you can fold

into that. And we wanted to explore things that

we could do. around enhancing that experience.

So if you go to a Dodgers game and there's a

ton of open seats in front of you, why not gift

people the ability to move forward? If you're

there with your kids, maybe you can go to some

exclusive area and show people around and have

an enhanced experience because of that. It doesn't

really cost anything for the team, but it definitely

makes those people more likely to be fans over

time. to really have a strong connection with

the brand, with the team, and to feel a little

bit more in those moments. So that's, I think,

what I want to explore with commerce is there

are things that are convenient, there are things

that we need, and then there are things that

we want. And we all have our things. Like I have

a bunch of mechanical keyboards behind me. Back

here, we all have our quirky little things that

we collect. that we're always online kind of

digging through and going down rabbit holes on.

And I think for those, I want to create experiences

more than I just want to sell a product. I want

to create a moment that people remember when

they go and they purchase something or they go

and they attend a drop in real life and they

feel something in a communal setting. So that's,

I think, where experiential commerce is going.

I think more and more people experiencing brands

in places like social media, right? They're going

to pop -ups. There's a place just around the

corner from me in LA, the mall where there's

a Chamberlain coffee place right next to a pot

mart. And both of those places have giant lines

always. It can be like six o 'clock at night

and there'll be a giant line of Gen Zers getting

coffee, which seems completely insane to me.

But like this is, people feel some draw. They're

fans of hers. They're fans. of the coffee place,

so they'll turn up and they'll make a moment

out of it. They'll post around it. So that's,

I think, an experience that people are gravitating

towards, but there's no real infrastructure to

help them with that. So that's where fanfare

comes in. What I was thinking of when you were

talking in the beginning was backstage passes.

Absolutely. What's more memorable than backstage

and being close to the artists, having them walk

past you like. I remember those moments. And

the same is true of Rita. I remember moments

when I was maybe 15 years old and going and getting

a limited edition of Super Metroid, I think it

was at the time. I remember unboxing it. I remember

just the feel of getting these things. I remember

all of those aspects because it was different.

It was limited. It was scarce. And it felt special

to me. I feel the opportunities there to create

more of these kind of lasting... moments and

you see some brands who are extremely good at

it, but it comes with some hazards. If you fail

in those moments, you cause massive frustration.

But that's the chance that you take. A lot of

times when you have a business, I think most

businesses, they want to try different things.

They're not going to do the same thing over and

over again for 100 years. So that's the chance

that you take. But my question or my comment

is, let's try to focus on more of the customer,

the fan, and how we can help them to benefit

from what the show is about and who is the star,

who is the singer of the band, whatever they

are showcasing. at the time. So maybe like if

I was doing this, looking at another side of

it or it could be similar side to what you're

saying, but what about thinking about the brand?

Like you said, whatever that is and how can we

improve that and also make the fans or the customers

happy. So they want to keep coming back and they

want to keep buying tickets and things, but they're

not feeling like they have to constantly pay

a lot of money. Whereas sometimes if a brand

or a band or something, they get more popular,

more famous, and then the ticket prices go up.

Who is benefiting from? I mean, to me, like,

it's common sense. If I'm paying more for whatever

that brand, it could be the paraphernalia, whatever

they're selling. If I'm paying more for that

or if they're being more successful, then it's

common sense that their prices, their prices

of everything are going to go up. But why does

that have to be? Because are we focusing on what

makes the fan happier? And how can they benefit

the most from buying shirts and accessories and

paying for the shows? And would they be happier

doing that? And also, or would you constantly

be raising your prices? And the other thing too

is... I hate to say this, but it's the class

of people. So if you keep raising your prices,

okay, I'm just gonna use this as one example,

raising prices. If you keep raising your prices,

then are you gonna be able to get the fan that

you had when the prices were lower or more sustainable

for a middle -class person? Or so now, if you

keep raising your prices, The upper class and

I don't really like we don't to me. We don't

really have like upper class and middle class

today. But the point is that I'm just using that

as a thing to say without the yeah. So the upper

class then is the only the way that that's the

only person that's going to be able to afford

that. Ticket, but then is that all that the brand

wants to attract? It's just the upper class then

now they have to make All this they have to change

everything that they're doing the quality in

order to satisfy The upper class so so now like

now they're gonna raise the price obviously So

are they gonna now shoot themselves in the foot

see this is what I'm saying. So this is kind

of like It makes sense, you know, because they'll

make a bunch of money in a short period of time.

It makes sense. But to me, it's not well, I don't

know, because I'm not I'm not running the company

or the business or whatever. But as far as the

consumer, right, or a fan or whatever, to me,

it makes more sense to stay, keep the prices

medium, because to me, the person that I get

is going to go by the price that the ticket costs.

because I even either have the money for whatever

the brand is selling or I don't. It's not like

a negotiation kind of thing. This is the price

and that's it. I think this is a really interesting

kind of behavioral aspect of live event sales

and just retail in general, which is if you have

scarcity and sometimes the scarcity is artificially

created. So you can get like a Birkin bag, for

example, like those super expensive luxury items.

They could produce more of them if they really

wanted to, but to have like a four or five year

waiting list creates a feeling of exclusivity

around that particular product. Or if you actually

have scarcity, like we can't have any more of

these artists, for example, like pick your favorite

artist. There's only a certain amount of ticket

dates that they can possibly do in a year. So

it's going to be naturally scarce. So then you

would say, well, Econ 101 would say you should

just try and increase the price. until people

stop purchasing. Right until you hit that where

you sell out and you've maximized revenue. But

then the problem is, as you've mentioned, you

anger all of your real fans who now can't get

those tickets because they're thousands of dollars

and they've been sold on the secondary market

and that's incredibly painful. And there's a

feeling, there's a backlash to that too. Like

artists will feel like their fans are frustrated.

with the artist because they can't go and see

them. So they try and strike a balance. And you'll

see this with if we take Taylor Swift, for example,

like the initial ticket sales, maybe few hundred

dollars. Everyone knows that those tickets are

going to go for thousands of dollars if they're

sold on the secondary. But there's a decision

to actually keep the price low enough that people

can go to these events. They're still more expensive

than they used to be. They're still very expensive.

but they're not market value by some margin.

You've created a huge incentive for someone to

buy them and sell them on secondary market. And

the same is true of products. I think Nike is

a good example here. Well, they'll sell products

and they'll keep price discipline. So they'll

have a drop for sneakers that are $200, $250.

And they know, based on the demand for those,

that they're going to go for 3x, 5x the price.

But they don't do that. And they don't try and

produce more of it so that they can maximize

how many people come through. They're trying

to create this feeling of exclusivity. And to

your point about just the middle class, the wealthy,

I think there is with this kind of model where

you're dropping things. And if you can really

try and reach the fans, like people who've listened

to an album multiple times should be moved forward

in line or people who failed five times to get

whatever it is. should be given exclusive access.

I think that's a way of keeping the price low,

making sure that people who are real fans feel

like they've been rewarded for their loyalty,

for their fandom. And they feel special because

they got something that most people didn't get.

And they didn't have to do that by spending like

10x the price. I see like more and more brands,

I think, build fandom around themselves by taking

on this kind of model. but then you get into

all of the headaches that come with it. So you

get into the headaches of like millions of people

show up all at once trying to get your things,

or people try and come in, work around the system

so they can sell it elsewhere. And that then

frustrates your fans. Like if you fall down in

one of those moments, you've frustrated everyone

involved. It's a really good model to try and

keep price discipline, reward people for their

time and effort and build loyalty over time.

But on the flip side of it, it does come with

some sharp edges that people need to be aware

of. Next topic is why product launches must evolve

beyond simple sales and how brands can create

unforgettable moments that last turning drops

into data. I think this goes back to this feeling

that there are there are things that we need

detergent socks, things that are really excite

anyone. They're just necessities that people

have to just Get every now and again. And then

there's the things that people want and the things

that we go after things that we kind of lost

after that we see wherever it is, we see them.

And the process right now for both of those things

is roughly the same. You go to a product page

and kind of looks like one of those old catalogs.

I remember way back when you would kind of browse

to your product. He would see an image and that's

the same for. when you're shopping for convenience

or when you're shopping for something that you

really care about and lust after. And I don't

think that that has to be true. I think when

you have things or you're able to create things

that people really want, then there's a way of

reaching them through an experience. Like whether

it's a pop -up, whether it's an in real life

drop where you have a whole community of people

come together to launch that product, or whether

you do something online where you maybe you bring

in a celebrity or an influencer or the artist

or creator that made the product to come and

talk to you about the product, to do something

that's a step above or many steps above, I think,

the convenience -based shopping they're all kind

of used to. So that's, I think, what we're trying

to move towards is this feeling of creating an

event around a product launch or product drop

or a restock even, things that really should

be exciting because I think these are things

that people really care about. And I think you

can really tap into that if you spend some extra

time and effort in crafting a launch experience

like that. What I always think of is these things

that you're saying are very general, which is

fine. Well, the first thing that we've been talking

about is the finances and how are they going

to get there? What are they going to do? How

are they going to do it? We have to pay salaries

to all these different people, all these different

things. And when I do coaching also, this is

one of the things I focus on a lot. What sets

me apart from everybody else? What am I doing?

I need to do something or several things that

are original. So if I have a brand... How many

brands are there even like just like detergent?

You know how many like I go to the store and

I'm like overwhelmed like there's a whole section

of just like one kind of detergent like it's

like ridiculous. And I don't know which one to

pick. I personally do because I use the same

name brands all the time. And that's just how

I am because I know that it's effective. But

there's a lot of different ones. So let's say

somebody wants to try something new and you could

use this scenario and what we're talking about

with any brand. Let's say somebody wants to try

something new. So or you want somebody, you know,

there's a lot of brands in that category. You

want them to buy your brand. What sets you apart?

What are you going to do that's going to make

yourself stand out that they are going to say,

I am going to buy this instead of everything

else? Well, the first thing I could think of

is marketing. That's the most common sense thing.

You pay somebody for marketing a lot of money

and then they figure out Because the more money

you pay the more marketing you're gonna get the

best quality and Then they figure out that how

was people gonna get I'm gonna buy your product

above everybody else's to me. That's their job

That's the first thing that I could think of

but that's the first as far as a business end.

But what is the customer? I'm focusing on the

customer and how they can benefit and what they're

going to get for their money and what's going

to make them truly happy. Not happy where you're

going to say, oh, I'm going to suck you in to

buying this product and it's all going to be

lies. OK, and we're going to stretch the truth.

And then when you buy it, you're going to see

eventually, not the first time. So you'll buy

it a lot of times. And then eventually you'll

figure out that this was not worth your money.

And meanwhile, you spent a whole bunch of money

on this thing. So I don't want to scam my customers.

I want to be true and genuine. And I want to

do it in a way where I'm not being overpriced,

but they're getting more for the same amount

of money than they would have bought better quality.

And this is all really not only is going to raise

the prices of the thing, because this now adds

different layers, because then you have quality

control and now everything has to be more advanced

than different things. So this adds a lot of

layers. So the person who pays that is the consumer,

right, is the the person who pays for the product.

So this is what I'm saying. So can I make it

genuine where the person knows that they're going

to get whatever you're increasing, whether it's

quality or advertising or the brand name, whatever

it is that you're trying to make better. So you

could set yourself apart from everybody else

where the customer is going to benefit the company,

not only the brand. So they could grow their

brand and then overpriced somebody else and then

start that process all over again. I mean, we've

definitely had brands where they treat these

launches as marketing opportunities in the run.

So when people buy a product, they unbox it.

They show how how high quality they are or like

how they paid a lower value for that product

because everything that comes along with it.

the anticipation, the posts around it, that's

all marketing spend that they didn't have to

make because like the fan, the customer is advocating

for the brand. So I think that's a really amazing

model. And I think back to like the Nikes of

the world where, like I say, that the products

that they're selling could go for two, three

X the price, if it was sold on secondary, they

deliberately underpriced them versus like the

market price just so people will feel that allure

the next time they come in. So I do see brands

using these as more than just selling an item,

and they're folding in marketing into that experience.

So if we can bring in loyal fans who love the

brand, who are going to advocate for the brand

and going to show everyone how amazing this product

is, like they paid X amount for it. but it clearly

looks like more than that. I think that's the

way that you can launch these products and you

can under price things because you're getting

more than just the value of that top line revenue.

You're also getting a loyal fan over time or

you're bringing more people in because this person

is talking about it with their friends, their

family and so on. So I think that's also an interesting

aspect of this is like seeing it more than just

You're selling N number of a product for X. This

is like an event for your brand to try and bring

more people in, to try and like elevate. And

I think treating your customers properly and

making sure that the items are high quality,

making sure the experience is high quality is

really key to that. Because people are not going

to advocate for your product if they fall apart

the second you open the box. If you frustrate

people in any way when you've built an audience

around this. product. So I think it's really

important that you do like keep the quality high

and keep the price low. And like I said, I think

this model is a good candidate for that just

because it has these aspects kind of rolled into

it. Next topic is how brands can stop losing

launch insights and start capturing actionable

loyalty driving data instead. Yeah, I think this

gets back to like actually trying to find out

who your loyal fans are. so that you can bring

them forward into like a limited experience just

for them, or you can move them forward in line

and make them feel special and make them feel

that their fandom and their loyalty has been

rewarded. So that's definitely something that

we're trying to do is trying to identify who

these people are, not just the people who maybe

paid a little bit more or like actually got through

because they were lucky in that moment, but the

people who failed. i don't know how many times

i failed in a sneaker drop many many times and

brands not knowing that i tried and i spent hours

engage with the brand but i'm just unlucky that's

a really important signal and i think if you

can reach those people if you can try and give

them something that rewards their time and effort

even though they're just unlucky in that moment

is really really important so That's what I say.

Like there's a lot of signal that's just lost

through these experiences. There's a really good

example from a drop that happened a couple of

years ago with 3 .6 million people showed up

for a draw where they had 50 ,000 of the item.

So only learning about those 50 ,000 people who

were successful and like missing out on the millions

of people that weren't is a huge mess. Like that's

really important information that those are potential

VIPs. those are potential fans of your brand

and you have no idea who they are or why they

attended and if they're going to keep attending

like those kind of things we want to capture

so that's trying to make sure that we try and

identify fans and that then brands can do things

for those fans that keep them loyal keep them

fans of the brand for as long as possible thank

you so what i'm thinking about is If I am lucky

and I get the tickets for whatever show it is

and I'm successful with getting whatever it is

for the brands, then I'm going to be a loyal

customer. But if I am unlucky and I've never

gotten anything, any promo or whatever it is

that they have, then I'm not going to be helping

the brand benefit from me because I've never

won anything or anything. So I don't have the

experience of doing the things, being a fan and

everything that goes with that, buying the everything

that they have or whatever. So therefore I might

not be as worth something if I've never gotten

tickets or I've never bought anything to the

brand, to the company. I might not be worth anything

because the person that keeps winning and getting

lucky, right, is the person that's constantly

buying stuff so they're gonna buy again. Obviously,

because if they bought a ticket to something

and you go to the venue, let's just say for an

example, right? They're going to buy a shirt.

They're going to buy this and that whatever is

there. But if I've never had that experience

and I was unlucky a lot of times, then I could

be potentially. not a good enough quality fan

for them to constantly be selling tickets to.

OK, I don't know if somebody like that would

really be able to really showcase the brand because

they're just a one time fan. So that's kind of

what I think about because I'm thinking about

how are they going to benefit most from me? even

though I don't want that to be, but to me it's

just the reality of the way it's done business.

Yeah. I think if you listen to an artist, if

you've been a fan of that artist for a long time,

like maybe this is the first time you want to

come in and buy tickets to see whoever it is,

it would be nice if my fandom over time was rewarded

in some way. Like there's some way of connecting

those dots that get me in and make me lucky that

first time. But you see people who, I guess sneaker

heads are a good example of people who attend

these things fairly frequently. And over time,

what ends up happening is you go through those

experiences again and again with different brands

and you feel like you attend, you fail. You see

those things immediately go over to secondary

market and getting sold by people who've just

kind of scooped up all of the available inventory.

And you keep doing that. You keep going back,

you keep failing. Eventually, even if you're

a fan of that brand, you're going to be lost

because it's just a frustrating experience. And

I feel like I'm been treated poorly by the brand.

Like they're not rewarding me for anything. Like

I'm spending all of this time with them and they're

just rewarding the people who can jump in the

quickest or who are willing to pay for those

farms of bots to go in and grab those products.

So that's what we want to avoid. Like the people

who Do spend time and effort with the brand.

Like there's incredible information in there.

So we want to make sure that things aren't just

been scooped up by people who don't care for

the brand, right? Who don't care about going

to see that artist. They just want to sell the

tickets elsewhere. We want to get these into

the hands of real people who were real fans of

that product or of that artist. But we also want

to make sure that people feel like they've been

treated with, with some respect. You spend three

hours in a line for something, and I get nothing.

Like, I realize this may be oversubscribed. It's

a scarce thing. I realize that I can't go see

Taylor Swift every day. I realize that everyone

else wants to see these shows too. But I should

feel like my time is worth something. That you

can maybe move me forward for the next tour or

the next date that's coming up. because I spent

so much time with the brand. So for, yeah, I

think identifying fans is tricky, especially

if you, your fans in all kinds of different places.

We definitely saw an attempt at this. I think

at the tour that Taylor Swift did, you could

go and you could buy copies of her album and

things like that and demonstrate that you were

a fan in that way. But like that feels like gouging

too, because now you're expecting people to go

and purchase something like 13 of a thing. I

think it was would maximize your chances of getting

through. Like, why not just tap into like, I've

been listening to this fat, this size for a long,

long time. Like, that's really important information.

It's not easily falsifiable information to like,

maybe it's going to a particular place or like

having gone to a particular place in the past.

Like those may be useful information, pieces

of information that we can use. So yeah, I think

identifying fans. identifying bad actors, removing

them from the processes and then allowing brands

and artists to to treat their fans properly.

Next topic is what legacy brands can learn from

sneaker culture, streetwear mastered by scarcity,

loyalty and hype lessons every traditional brand

should borrow. Yeah, I think you see this more

and more with brands in different categories,

too. So Stanley is a good example. If you remember

the last couple of years. the quencher, the tumble,

like everyone was scrambling to get these things.

And it was a very deliberate process that Stanley

went through to get there. They hired someone

from Crocs on their marketing side, and they

went after this kind of approach of tapping into

viral moments that are created around this brand.

So it was very carefully done. It was very deliberate.

When you get there, if you can create that virality

around your products, like we saw with Stanley,

they tripled their revenue every year for the

last three years, like incredible growth of a

very established brand. So it's a really powerful

model. Like I say, it allows you to create a

communal feeling around your brand. It allows

you to create fandom, but you need to be careful

to treat people properly through that process.

So you don't want to create frustration. You

don't want to overdo it too. You don't want to

sell everything through a drop. You want to be

like picking halo products, like things that

you want to create some allure around, right?

You want to create an incentive for people to

go in there and maybe they get their products.

Maybe they don't, but they're aware of the brand

now. They'll go and navigate through your catalog

and see what else you sell. So it's a really

interesting process. It's a really interesting

model. And it's something that Supreme, like

streetwear brands have been doing for a while

and have been incredibly successful at. Like

Supreme, for example, like pretty much anything

that you used to slap a Supreme logo on would

sell out immediately. And like I say, there's

a lot of brands now that are using this model.

There's a cookie place in LA that sells exclusively

through Drops. So at 9 a .m. on a Monday morning,

the notification will go out and everyone knows

to pile into their website to try and get this

kind of box of exclusive, fancy looking cookies.

And they sell out instantly. And like they created

like a community of people who will post about

this stuff and like will share the cookies that

they got that week. So it's a really amazing

model if you can tap into it. And I think More

and more brands are trying to reach for it, but

they're realizing it comes with some, like I

say, sharp edges around running a process like

that is definitely not for the faint hearted.

And you're kind of taking on a lot of risk and

as much as we can do to try and allow brands

to mitigate that risk and make sure that their

customers are treated properly through a process.

The more we can do, the better I think. Like

I'm a fan of all of these different brands and

I've felt frustrated. And it's always been that

feeling of why is it still like this? We can

do better than this. We don't have to camp outside

a store overnight to try and get this product.

That seems like a painful process that people

go through and they really don't. So that's what

we're aiming at here with Fanfare. That's what

I used to do with concert tickets. We would stay

online. Overnight we would sleep there on the

line because you get it from I don't even know

if the ticket places existed I have no idea but

you would get it from the from the venue where

it was and that was just how we did it they probably

Existed but it was cheaper just to get it from

the venue. I know you can't do it that way anymore,

but So it's this is all very interesting. So

the last topic is behind the scenes of high stakes

product drops and how to win real talk and practical

advice from the front line of today's most demanding

product launches. Yeah, I think the brands that

we've seen succeed with this model are very thoughtful

about why they're doing it, which products they're

targeting for this. It's not just we have a bunch

of stuff in the warehouse. We're just going to

try something and throw this out there. It's

thinking about this as a campaign around building

some particular audience. Maybe it's a change

in demographic you're going through, or maybe

it's a certain group of people that you want

to reach. Think about what products make sense

to that group. Make sure that you're pricing

them probably under market value so you're creating

some exclusivity or creating this feeling like

people are getting something. because they're

going through a process rather than just spending

an enormous amount of money on a product. And

then just trying to understand what the level

of demand is so that you can create that scarcity.

Because if you sell through every time, if it's

very easy to get a product, and you've deliberately

decided that you want to create some mystique

around a product, you're not going to do it if

it just sells through immediately. So thinking

about how much of a particular product, maybe

you do a small batch first. and see how things

go. I think understanding how people are engaging

with you through that whole process, like you

announced something, you maybe message people

who are your fans, like you message your VIPs,

like how are they engaging with you over time?

And then using that to drive those decisions

around that particular launch. So I would say

definitely be deliberate. It's not like some

of these things go viral and it feels like an

accident. For brands, it's not an accident. They

usually prepare for these things. Even if they

just tap into a viral moment, they're kind of

ready with things to go. Certainly was the case

with Stanley. So that's how I would think about

these kind of experiences. Yes, that was good.

Thank you. So I'm thinking about a few things.

And one of the ones that I think is very important

is how to get the most out of my fans and potential

fans. And how do I keep them? And what is that

really worth to me? So you're giving the example

of the drops. So what are they? How are they

going to benefit the fan? Are they good quality,

high quality? Do they match the brand? And I'm

sure these things are what they consider before

they do these drops. as an example, but am I

going to benefit truly by buying something on

this drop? I am a fan. Am I going to benefit

truly from this product that I'm buying or am

I just buying it because it's a drop and I am

expected to buy it from the company, from the

brands? And then if I buy it, I'll be on a list.

And then I'll be able to get notified and then

get another one, get another one from another

drop. And that's part of the company's control.

That's not the consumer. That's a part because

the company is the one that the brand is the

one that arranges all this. So how is it going

to truly benefit the consumer, the fan? Is it

going to benefit them? for the company's sake

because they just like it for two seconds and

then they know that they have to go buy another

one or is it going to truly benefit the fan where

they know that they could get something out of

it so it's going to be more like a like than

a want which is maybe not that easy to really

think about or really consider for a company

because I mean, to me, how many T -shirts can

you have? How many paraphernalia and different

things, accessories that the brands are selling?

How many can you have? I buy a lot of this type

of stuff and I collect it just because I like

it. It means something to me because I collect

it. But that's just me. But that's what I'm saying.

Can they really think about as the brand just

thinking about if they're going to do this for

a marketing standpoint and then they're going

to say, well, we're going to get the fan or the

consumer to buy these things just because they

know that they're going to get notified again

so they could buy something else. And maybe they

like that. Maybe the fan likes that. Maybe they

feel important, but who is it benefiting more?

Is it benefiting the fan or the consumer more

or is it benefiting the company more? So therefore

they can increase their fans and the company

can make more and more money. I think you see

this where brands will burn themselves out with

a model like you create intrigue, but your product

isn't up to the mark. People get excited about

those. You maybe overdo it and then you just

lose lose your fan base. People won't stay fans

of your products for very long if they're trash.

But I think you mentioned like, how many t -shirts

do I really need? And you buy things and collect

things. So I have like sneakers in my closet

that they get maybe a walk out every like twice

a year or something. But I'm going to keep those

for a very long time. I'm going to treat them

properly. I'm going to care for them. And these

are not things I just buy and immediately throw

out. These mean something. And they mean something

because I can find the brand. The brand has created

some feeling of scarcity around these products.

If I walk out with these particular pairs, because

the people who know, they know, they'll identify

them. There's some intangible benefit for the

fans, for the people buying these things around

those products. And I much prefer that. I love

the collectibles. because these are things that

you do just keep around. Like I say, I have a

bunch of keyboards back there that I'm clearly

not using, but they're out. They're there just

in case I fancy one day of picking up and using

it. There's intangible benefits to these products.

And that comes with fandom and that comes with

this kind of feeling around like high quality

as well as like a community feeling around that

particular brand or that particular category

of products, for example. So I think there's

For sure, there are brands who get a viral moment

and they'll just try and capitalize on that by

just throwing out products that are subpar. That's

not a good long -term strategy because you will

lose those fans. Those people who are highly

engaged with the brand, they will post this stuff.

Their frustrations are the products. You will

hear about it and you have more and more ways

that your brand can be and feel that frustration.

than ever before. People will go immediately

over to wherever it is they go, like Instagram,

for example, and you will hear about that. And

we definitely see brands go through that pain

where they maybe overshoot, they get a lot of

interest, they start really producing things

that maybe aren't in line with what the fan wants,

and they lose them. So you very much need to

make sure that you keep the fans happy, both

through the experience and through the product.

But I think you are creating like lasting products,

like people who maybe they only have a few t

-shirts from that particular brand, but they're

special and they're treated as such. Yeah, it's

more like the intangibles of of of this than

it is sometimes the tangible things that you

can touch and feel and experience. But it's definitely

meaningful for fans, I think. Yeah, that makes

sense. So I collect baseball caps. That's one

of the things that I like to collect. So. If

a sports team wins, then I buy the baseball cap

for that team. But I don't wear those because

I don't want to wear them out. So the baseball

caps I have, I wear, but not the ones that I

buy as a collectible, not the ones that really

mean something to me. I don't wear those. But

that's just me. Everybody, I'm sure, does things

differently for all different reasons. That was

good. The show is coming to a close. Would you

like to say anything in closing? Just if you

are a brand, if you're a marketer and you feel

like you want to reach for this kind of model,

if you're interested in drops and we have Black

Friday, Cyber Monday coming up, if you felt that

pain going through an experience like that, please

reach out. You can find me at fanfare .io. Always

happy to talk about this stuff. And I feel like

this is pain that everyone has felt. So if we

can help people avoid that pain, both brands

and consumers, we're here to help. Thank you.

And what about social media? Do you have any

connections with social media at all? Yeah, you

can find me on LinkedIn is probably the place

to reach me. We do have an Instagram presence

that we're pushing on. But for the moment, like

LinkedIn is the place to find me. And please

feel free to reach out. I'm always on there.

for my sins, so happy to connect with people

and chat. Thank you very much. And we will put

all the contact information on the show's information,

too. So thank you very much for being on the

show. I really appreciate it. Thank you. It's

great to be here.