Leadership Is a Choice: Mindset, Trust, and Growth with Ron Reich

Welcome to the Behavioral Profit, the podcast

where we break down the real behaviors behind

performance leadership and workplace growth.

I'm your host, Debbie Longo. Today I'm joined

by someone with more than three decades of experience

developing leaders at every level, Ron Reich.

Ron has spent 32 years in training, consulting,

and organizational development, working with

major companies across industries from healthcare

to high tech. He's also a dedicated student of

leadership, having read more than 400 books on

the topic, and he brings a practical people first

philosophy to the work he does every day. He

believes leadership is about relationships, service,

and the commitment to stay a work in progress.

I'm excited to dig into the behavioral patterns

behind great leadership and the shifts that truly

impact culture and performance. Ron, thank you

for being here. Thank you, Debbie. It's good

to be here. Thank you very much. I appreciate

you being on the show. So we're going to make

this interview a structural kind of slash conversation

type interview. And I have a few topics here

that we can work around. You explained a little

bit. We were talking before about leadership

patterns. You mentioned that you spent over three

decades developing leaders. So what is the behavior

you see most consistently holding leaders back

and what usually triggers the shift? I think

one of the things that holds leaders back and

that holds organizations back, it's been my direct

experience, it's been my observation, that a

lot of leaders are afraid to let go and they're

afraid to let people be themselves to empower

the people that are actually working for them

and just let them do their thing. It's a constraint

on everybody. Yeah, I definitely agree with that

because to me that has a lot to do with the mindset

Which is a lot of a lot of things I teach right

in the way that I teach it But to have a constraint

as you put it. That's just kind of like freezing

my mind Almost like my mind is in like a stroke

level. Well, I mean I think a lot of times too

Tying into that, Debbie, it's along the lines

as well of so many leaders think, I have to have

all the answers. And if I don't have all the

answers, maybe I'll ask you a question here or

there. An old HR director at a company where

I worked one time made a comment to me and said,

there's such little independent thought here.

It's crazy because the leaders were do this,

do this, do this. And now I'm going to tell you

to do this. I still remember at a plan of action

meeting down in Florida somewhere, the VP of

our group is in front of a couple thousand people,

whatever it was. And he made the comment. We

work very long hours back at the home office

trying to figure things out for you. And I was

like, and that's one of the biggest problems

that exists here because you don't let people

think we will think for you. Just do what we

tell you. But I always want to be the one to

make the decision myself because I always think

that I know the right thing and what to do and.

that that's gonna be the right way to do things

instead of me thinking about should i be taking

direction does this person have more knowledge

than me is am i gonna be able to learn from this

person and that's just the matter of being open

minded and willing to do different things, willing

to change, willing to open your mind. And when

I do that, I excel. And if I don't do that, then

I'm stopping. It's like I'm literally, like if

I stop, like I'm not walking, my brain does that,

my brain stops. And when I do that, then not

growing, that stops me from growing. And that

is not a good thing because then I'm stagnant

and you can't be. That's impossible anyway. It

needs to be a two -way street, meaning that the

leaders need to be open to what their colleagues

have to say, what their colleagues are suggesting.

And clearly, the colleagues need to be open to

what the leaders have to say. And I mean, that

to me, that's called collaboration. That's working

together. And that's when you're going to get

your best results. Yep. So this podcast that

I do, this is what it's all about. what we've

just been talking about how can leaders and even

people who want to be leaders excel and how can

they open their minds and how can they really

make the decision. or they'll have the willingness

or whatever, just to change just that little

bit of it. That will make a big difference. But

like I said, if I stop or I close my mind, then

nobody's going to help me. You know what I mean?

My whole life, nobody ever helped me. I made

the decision to change and stuff. Nobody's going

to help because first of all, they probably don't

know how to help. And so often people are just

waiting for direction. Tell me what to do. Tell

me what to do. I'll sit here and I'll pretend

I'm busy. And when you tell me what to do, then

I'll do it instead of this is what I'm working

on. This is what I intend to do or whatever it

might be. And like I said, because if I'm in

that position where I'm just waiting, I'm not

growing. I'm not developing. And I mean, I'm

certainly not going to stay around long. Believe

it or not, this is a huge problem. Huge and I'm

glad we talk about this because people quit and

people get fired and people Businesses even go

bankrupt because of this one one thing here that

we're talking about just not refusing to grow

This is a huge problem. It's funny because I

worked with an organization recently We were

talking about implementing some new things looking

at different ways of doing things And some of

the participants totally bought into it, which

was fun. Some of them though, you could, you

could see in their eyes where it's just like,

you want us to do what? And I mean, this is going

to create more work. And I was like, well, yeah,

except it's the, it's, it's a better way to do

things. And ultimately it's going to make the

company grow. It's going to help the company

be more profitable, which will help everybody.

Just everything that goes along with that. Interesting,

very interesting stuff. I was looking here at

your something you mentioned about relationship

driven leadership, your philosophy centers on

building sustainable relationships, what behaviors

destroy trust, the fastest inside organizations

and what behaviors rebuild it. This is a good

topic. There are so many different ways to go

with that relative to destroying relationships,

not listening, not just what we were talking

about, not being open to ideas. I think one of

the big things too, Debbie, is creating that

psychologically safe environment. If I don't

feel safe bringing things up, I'm going to keep

it to myself. I'll speak for myself. I don't

like getting my head torn off. If I bring it

up, no, you can't do that. That's stupid. whatever

it might be, is like, good, you figure it out.

And I mean, to rebuild trust, I think a lot of

it is, and I would just say, I'll go in the opposite

direction of what I just said. Not listening,

listen, listen to understand and be open, be

flexible with your thinking and be open to trying

new things. Yeah, I definitely agree with that.

But for me, this is just my experience. It really

all depends upon my mindset and also do I want

to make goals for myself? Am I happy where I

am in my life if I'm stuck at my job or I don't

make enough money to put gas in my car to go

to work or to buy food? Do I want to stay in

that type of? Job, do I want to live that type

of life? So it's really and kind of like an internal

more personal choice because some people like

that. They just want to stay there and that's

fine for them. That's not me. But there are people

that don't want to stay there. They don't know

how to change and they don't know what to do

and they don't know how to get another job. or

ask my boss for a raise or a promotion or something

like that, or communicate with my boss. Even

an executive can communicate with their board

members to communicate in a certain way that's

positive and loving where they can say what's

wrong and what the issue is and if they need

to change something or whatever. If I don't say

anything and I just want to stay in that way,

in that form, then not only nothing's going to

happen, but you could be hurting the company

that you're working for. The company could be

going backwards. Sure. Absolutely. There's no

doubt about that. I loved what you were talking

about earlier relative to everything is a choice,

everything. get down down to do i choose to say

this to my boss or not do i choose to continue

to work here. And these are all choices everything

and i mean that that comes out of a big big believer

in steven cubbies work from the seven habits

and that's one of the extra i'm certified to

do that class and that's one of the exercises

we do where people realize. Everything is a choice.

I don't have to do anything. Nothing. And I love

that. I was like, you have to change. No, I don't.

Except there are consequences if I don't. And

that's the other side of that. What outfit do

I wear today? Everything. I make that choice.

What outfit do I wear? So I go from what's the

route that I want to go to work? I could go this

highway or this road. Everything I do from the

minute I wake up until the minute I go to sleep,

I'm making choices. But am I looking those choices?

We're talking about business and stuff here,

but this pertains to everything. Because if I

change my behavior in the business, it transfers

to my home, vice versa. So do i want to look

at those choices or do i want to keep just doing

this the same thing over and over and expecting

that things are going to get better or not or

i don't care. And these are all choices that

i make so this is why for me and this is one

of the reasons why i do this to is that big in

the behavior change or any type of change really

is an internal changes like an internal shift

basically so it's like a shift in my mind. And

that affects every single thing i do cuz the

mind controls the body listen i hate to talk

about diseases but. There's evidence you can

look it up online that stress is one of the things

that causes cancer and heart attacks. Well, and

heart disease. So this is all stuff that we have

proof of today. I'll share an example with you

when you use the word stress, because it was

just a really fun experience. I'm in Philadelphia

a number of years ago doing a session. and we're

at a hotel and I got to talking with one of the

hotel employees a little bit. We were on a break

or whatever it may have been. And she just said

to me, she was, oh yeah. She said, I have to

leave here today at 430. I have to go pick up

my son. I have to get him to soccer practice.

And then I have to get him something to eat.

And I stopped her and I was like, could you stop

just for a second? Would you mind? Please, if

you will. Would you just modify your phrasing

instead of saying I have to either say I'm going

to or I choose to. She looked at me and slowly

she did it. She goes, I'm going to leave here

at four 30. I choose to get my son and to take

him to soccer. I'm going to make him something

to eat. She went on for a little while. And I

was like, what's different? And Debbie, I swear

she just looked, she goes, my stress, my stress

is so much different. I choose to do these things

because I'm a single parent and I love him so

much. And I was like, that's right. Cause everything's

a choice. Son, stay home and watch video games.

I don't have time. You can't do this. Son, you

know, make yourself a sandwich. I don't have

time to make you dinner. Everything is a choice.

Everything. Yeah. So she just felt that she put

it in her head that she had to do it and she

didn't have a choice and she gave her and that's

a choice that she made to tell herself that she

didn't have a choice. That's a choice. I don't

have a choice because she's because we do have

choices. You see what I'm saying? Whether we

think we don't or not, that is how the human

brain works. It gives us the ability to think

for ourselves we're not robots and somebody programmed

into me. It's monday you're gonna wake up at

eight o 'clock and this is what you're gonna

wear today that's what we do with robots okay

that's not the way humans work so she programmed

that into her mind. that she had to do it that

she made that choice to say that she had to do

that so was you know what i mean so is like she

didn't have a choice which was it which i think

is interesting but i've seen these i work with

people like this these are extremely common things

extremely common i mean where creatures of habit

to me like i work with so many people it's really

difficult for me to find people who are really

not really really different in some way shape

or form everybody's pretty much the same. That's

really just my experience because things just

repeat in tons of different ways. So coaching

across levels. This was something I thought was

interesting. You've coached leaders from frontline

supervisors to executives. What behavioral difference

distinguishes someone who grows from someone

who doesn't? I think it truly, Debbie, it's a

mindset. I mean, I really, really do. And you

make me think of front line supervisor with a

client of mine. They're a heavy duty towing company.

And I was out in the field with him. We were

spending the day together because he also works

the trucks and that kind of stuff. And we had

gone through a training session with he and some

of his colleagues, maybe two or three months

earlier. And he kept bringing up unsolicited

to me, things we had covered in class, because

that ties into emotional intelligence. Well,

this is what we talked about with feedback, Ron,

and I was like, wow, you're really using what

we did. And again, how much fun is that to realize

is like, wow, you do want to make a difference,

you're using what we've learned. And I mean,

I'm recommending him, I have recommended him

as an emerging leader within the organization.

And so I think a lot of that is a mindset, and

it needs to be as well, Debbie, what we were

talking about earlier, a growth mindset. Because

I pray, I really do, I never stop learning. I

mean, I'd like to be learning until I take my

last breath. Yeah, so I agree with that. So this

is basically the common theme of this podcast.

is changing in the behavior and thinking, what

am I going to do? Which way am I going to go?

Am I going to go forward or backwards, you know,

or stay the same? Science tells me I'm sitting

in this chair. It doesn't look like I'm moving,

but science tells me that I'm moving. Why is

that? Because the earth is spinning and the earth

never stops spinning. OK, so all of the things

in your room, OK, like my everything in my room,

like my light and my computer, all of this is

all moving. We just can't actually see it moving.

So nothing really scientifically, which is really

what it really what's happening is that we're

all moving. So the thing with that is either.

I'm never stagnant. So if I am, my experience

is that I'm going to eventually go backwards.

So if I refuse to go forward, because I'm never

stagnant, if I refuse to go forward, I might

stay where I am for a little bit, but then eventually

I'm going to go backwards. So that's what it's

going to tell me to do. That's the automatic

way that I'm going to go, only because I'm not

telling myself or giving myself any type of signal

or anything like that that I want to change.

And I want to do something good for myself. Joe

Paterno, the former football coach at Penn State,

he said one time, if you're not getting better,

you're getting worse. And that makes sense to

me. I mean, I had to think about it for a little

while. Then I realized it's like, sure. And his

point was to that your competition is getting

better. And so if you're not, you're falling

behind and falling behind it. No, we're not going

to change whatever it might be. And it's like,

you're not going to be around law. Well, he's

a coach. So he wants motivates people. He wants

to do good. He's looking for people to move forward.

But if I'm working with somebody and they don't

well, first of all, if they don't want to change

or anything that's really not really that easy

for me to work with them I probably wouldn't

but the point is that that's the very very first

step is to be willing if they want that right

then I can go forward and help them if they turn

around and go backwards I can still help them

why because they took that first step of being

willing that the key thing did you ever hear

of the first step is the giant step that expression

No, yeah, the first step is the giant step. It's

all okay That's the key thing because it's the

truth because what is gonna make me pick up the

phone and call a coach or Call go on a job interview

Or look for another job online or speak to my

supervisor or something What's gonna make me

do that first step? It's gonna be me creating

the willingness That's what it's going to be.

It's not going to be anybody else. Like choices,

same thing. Like we make the choice. So these

are all very interesting things and they tie

in very, very well together. Absolutely. Something

also the future of leadership based on your decades

of study and experience. What behavioral skill

do you believe will define the next generation

of effective leaders? I believe it's communicating

effectively. And one of the reasons i say that

i think the best leaders to come will be the

ones who can talk to other people who can listen

well who can get their ideas across to people

because so often it drives me crazy now. Even

just in my personal life when i walk the dog

or or just i'm out where ever. everybody is on

their phone everybody and i need walking the

dog in the morning i'll go buy people who are

also out for a walk they had their dogs out whatever

it might be. I try to do it with everyone i pass

good morning and debbie i'll tell you right now

probably only about thirty percent of the people

respond. Because they're so busy on the phone

or what is it oh no no i can't talk to anybody

my goodness was like man it's gonna it's gonna

be the people who can build and sustain those

relationships that will succeed what makes me

stay on the phone what makes me stay off the

phone. What allows me to make these choices are

make these decisions to live this type of life

that i wanna live well you know what is a funny

little thing called peer pressure and if i have

a neighborhood okay or a community and everybody's

on their phone okay which to me this is how this

really started everybody's on their phone. A

lot of times we wanna follow people, not everybody,

some people are leaders and stuff, but most times,

if you see like 10 people doing something, right,

a lot of times you're just gonna do it. So this

is kind of like a trend, like a fashion trend,

this is how these things start, where you have

maybe like an influential figure, like a actress

or something like that, starts a trend, but it

doesn't have to be that, it could be anybody.

One person, two people, three people. That's

how it starts so if i see somebody doing doing

something and then i want to do it so can i train.

My mind not to do that can i train my mind to

know the difference between just because somebody

else is doing it i don't know if that's good

for me or not i don't know if that's gonna benefit

me or not but can i train my mind to think. Beyond

that and say to myself this person's on their

phone these ten people run their phone Do I want

to do this is this gonna benefit me or not? Or

do I automatically pick up the phone and go on

to the phone now? I'm gonna say one other thing

one thing I teach is this is a good one. I Teach

the person to be in control of their minds instead

of their mind controlling them So when I'm done

teaching somebody or coaching or helping or whatever

you want to call it They know how to train their

mind They are in control of their mind because

when my mind is in control of me I can do just

like I said Somebody's on the phone. I just pick

up the phone to me That might be a good thing

if you're in the field, you know, but like you

said everybody's walking How is that gonna benefit

us? That's just my experience Yeah no i agree

i agree and it goes back to again everything's

a choice i don't have to do that it's not always

easy it's not always the popular choice it's

still my choice very good i like it i think we've

come to the close is there anything that you

would like to say in closing how can they get

in touch with you and if i miss something from

the beginning. I think we've covered everything.

I mean, anybody, I would welcome the chance to

talk with anybody. The easiest way to do it is

probably via LinkedIn, just Ron Reich, R -E -I

-C -H. You can just Google my name. It'll come

up via LinkedIn. And yeah, I welcome the chance

to chat with anybody. Same thing via Instagram.

Yeah, this is behavioral prophet. Thank you for

being on the show. My name is Debbie Longo executive

behavioral coach. Thank you for being on the

show I really appreciate it my pleasure