Oksana Lukash: Why Employee Experience Drives Profit and Performance

Welcome to the Behavioral Profit Show. I'm Debbie

Longo, Transformational Coach. This show is about

one thing, why businesses don't perform the way

that they should. Most leaders think they have

a strategy problem, but they don't. It's behavioral.

It's how decisions are made, how pressure is

handled, and how people actually operate inside

the business day to day. On this show, we break

down... what's really driving missing targets,

stalled growth and poor execution, and what shifts

when behavior changes. Because when behavior

changes, performance improves, and that's where

profit comes from. We have a very special guest

today, and we're gonna take a closer look at

what's really going on in her business, what's

working, what's not, and what behavior may impact

performance, and what your experience is in your

businesses that you've worked on. Good afternoon.

Welcome to the show. Thank you for being here.

Thank you, Debbie, so much for having me. I'm

going to ask you to talk a little bit about your

experiences in the businesses that you've been

in and possibly your current business that you

have, whatever you're comfortable talking with,

where you have seen a behavior change when from

one... point to another, and this will be also

part of your experience also, right, in the business.

And that change ultimately went to increase sales

and profits, or it went to make the business

more positive, where the employees were better,

everybody was nicer, different things like that.

But what the ultimate goal of this show is, okay,

is what I just explained, which was very broad

in the introduction. But the ultimate goal is

if I change my behavior, either the business

owner transfers to the employees, that will ultimately

increase sales and profits. And then the company

will go from all the way down to the very, very,

very top. And their peers in their industry that

own other companies will have no idea what happened

at all. and they will know because their business

will basically skyrocket, okay? So if you could

explain to me some of those experiences, I would

really appreciate that, thank you. Yeah, no,

happy to. So to give you a quick overview so

that the viewers understand my experience, I

spent over 20 years in the People Operations

space or... A lot of people call it still HR

and worked for small, medium, large companies,

privately owned, equity or VC backed as well

as a lot of public companies. And what I've seen

the main huge difference is how talent internally

is treated. It's also how companies look at all

of the stakeholders versus shareholders. So the

stakeholders is everyone that's involved with

the business. It's your talent, it's your employees.

It's the board executives, your customers, the

people that do invest in your organization, as

well as your customers and clients, vendors,

everybody. And again, obviously shareholders

are usually only the individuals that have financially

invested in your organization. And the big behavior

is that if you pay attention to the experience

that every single stakeholder has, that is the

difference maker because you're thinking about

the entire company, everybody that's involved

with it. The way I say it, especially if your

business is very much dependent on the customer

experience and customer service, you cannot possibly

ask. You are employees to provide a four -season

rich Carlton experience to somebody when you're

giving them, right, a Motel 6 experience themselves.

You can not ask people to do something you're

not willing to do yourself. And I think for a

very long time, a lot of companies only focused

on financial metrics, operational rigor, all

those things that are easy, in quotations, to

measure. and report, but how do you measure again,

right people? How do you measure engagement?

We've tried, but it is very tough. But the thing

is once you invest in each individual, once you

again understand what each person is amazing

in, what are their strengths? What are their,

we're going to call it superpowers and align

them to roles where they can do what they do

best the majority of the time, and you create

an environment and experience where they're striving

and most of their needs are met, all you really

then have to do is kind of get out of their way

and let them do their thing. And I've been again

in companies, one comes to mind, where we grew

from 200 to 600 in less than two years and were

acquired and were able to actually drive a higher

per share sale price because we were the best

company in what we did. And our differentiator

was customer service. It was the customer retention.

We had, I believe, 98 % of customer retention

in an industry where that's unheard of. And it

was all because we were best with what we were

doing internally for our employees. And that

just completely build over into our clients and

we also built in. why the work that they were

doing was important. So that's really good and

that's an excellent point. There's a few excellent

points actually that you made there. So the first

one is that you explained about how a few different

ways that you can help people change their behavior,

right, by being positive. And also, a lot of

people don't realize, and this is one of the

things that I teach a lot too, is that everything

is customer service. Everything is sales. So

like people say, oh, I'm selling a service. That's

not true. They're selling themselves. Like I

sell a service. I don't have a product, but I'm

selling myself. And one of the reasons how I'm

doing this is through the few podcasts I have

advertising social media. So everything is sales.

And how do I, what do I do? I have to have customers

or clients, whatever you want to call it. in

order to make a business. You do, everybody does,

so I could live, so I could pay rent and put

food on my table. How do I treat the customer?

How do I treat the client? That's customer service.

So we could think it's one thing, but you have

to really look at it and use your imagination

a little bit. because everything is customer

service. So not only that, but if I have employees,

some businesses have a little, some are small

businesses, some are medium sized businesses.

All right. And if, if I have employees, I want

to treat them like I would want them to treat

my customer. So I'm going to talk to them positive.

Now they're going to get on the phone or speak

to the client in a positive way. But if I talk

to them negative with controlling and manipulating

and everything, then that's how they're going

to relate it to the client or the customer, whoever

they're talking to. And that's ultimately the

person that's going to bring in their business.

So it really depends on how I treat my employees.

And that's exactly what you just said. Those

are the examples that you just exactly gave.

And that goes perfectly in line with what? Ultimately

increasing sales and profits, because that's

exactly what that's going to do. I can add really

quick to that, too. At the end of the day, we

are very social creatures as people and we do

business. with other people. So again, right,

there's very, I mean, there's definitely a handful

of organizations and companies that do something

that is so unique, that they kind of have the

monopoly on the market. With everything else,

there are dozens, if not hundreds of companies

that offer the same product, the same service.

So the difference truly does come to those relationships.

And it comes down to the fact that you have again

that trust, that psychological safety, that again,

all businesses are great at taking care of their

customers when everything is going fantastic.

But the true test is when things go off the rails,

when there are mistakes, when there are issues,

that you want to be able to reach out to somebody

and have that conversation. same thing as internally.

Yes, you want to treat your employees positively,

but in no way does that mean that you're right,

not going to have the tough conversations. If

somebody is not doing what they're supposed to

do, if they're not meeting the standards, it's

more how you do it. It's again, it's not beating

somebody over the head and really a rate making

them feel less. then it's being able to give

them that constructive insight with examples,

but also provide tools and support on how they

can go ahead and be able to work in that area.

So be specific. If you're going to ask somebody

to be better in something, also support them

and give them the tools. and then stay with them

to ensure, right, that that behavior is moving

in the right direction, because that's how they're

going to be able to also then handle those sticky

situations with the customers when they come

up. And that is another thing that is extremely

popular and common is that this is how, if my

business is not going well, there's a problem.

There's a serious problem. If I am decreasing

in revenue, in sales, what's going to happen?

I'm going to have, if I'm a business owner or

an executive, I'm going to have less money in

my pocket. And that's not a good thing. Let's

say I'm on the stock market. My stocks are not

going to be doing good. That's not a good thing.

So unfortunately, people, businesses and business

owners have to get to this place where they are

losing a lot of money in order to see that. Now,

I don't want that. And I know that doesn't have

to be like that. But a lot of times that's where

it gets to because the business owner is going

to constantly do what they're doing. And they're

just increasing negativity, whether, like I said,

it's control manipulation, whatever it is, right?

They're increasing negativity. And then what

happens is that that's when the business starts

to go down. And also nobody could do anything

by themselves. I can't run a business by myself.

I can't have a family by myself. If I was by

myself, I would have no family. It's impossible.

There's no way that I could do pretty much anything

by myself. So whether that company, and I could

think of like a tech company, whether those employees

have direct access to the customer or the client

or not is fine because that's going to manage

them differently. Basically, so the way they

manage the way the business owners and the executives

manage or transfer information or whatever to

the employees is going to be different depends

on the business. But It could be advertising.

It could be anything, social media. Eventually,

that information gets translates to the customer.

And believe it or not, you don't necessarily

have to speak to the client in order for it to

get translated there. But that's not a whole

nother story for another podcast. I think another

behavior that CEOs, boards, executives. business

owners, founders really need to adopt and be,

in my opinion, non -negotiable, is don't look

at your talent as easily replaceable. And what

I mean by that, again, everybody, like you pointed

out, is going to have tough times. But here's

the thing. You know that. No business, right,

just starts off and shoots into the sky and never

hits the mark. And if you do, you probably have

a lot of skeletons in the closet that you don't

know about, because again, it's those tough times

that test the business, that test the teamwork,

that test the relationships and the ability of

everyone in the organization. But as the top

leader, when you are making decisions to hire

somebody. I believe it is very important that

you have to look at every single hire as you

are making a commitment to them, that you are

going to do everything and anything to guarantee

their space and that job for as long as humanly

possible. The same way as when you're bringing

in a new person, you also need to ensure that

that does not jeopardize the jobs of other people.

If you are in a situation where, and I'm not

saying don't ever let anybody go, right? For

anybody that might jump to that, no. What I'm

saying is don't just automatically, oh, potentially

our business is gonna increase. We're just gonna

hire a bunch of people. And if it doesn't come

through, we'll just let them go. Don't do that

because you do have that obligation. And like

you said, you were not hiring just an individual.

You're hiring actually their entire family. You're

hiring everybody that that person knows and loves.

And guess what? As a leader, your employees'

family and their children know your name. It

is up to you in what context and how. but you

are being talked about at dinner tables. So you

need to take that very seriously. So again, every

investment, every addition and headcount is a

huge responsibility. And again, I think it's

very important when the tough times come, don't

automatically jump, select, cut headcount. Look

at all the other ways that you potentially can

tighten the belt. Also, I would urge regardless

of the size of your organization during the tough

times, during the times, even great times, but

you need to write potentially pivot. There's

a lot of change management. I seriously beg all

the executives to not make decisions in silos.

The bigger the company, the higher your role.

the more you are separated from what actually

happens day to day on the floor. So if you're

making decisions in a silo in a room, you're

going to screw up. Bring in as much as you can

with confidentiality, all of those things in

tow. Bring in the people that the change is going

to impact and make them be part of the solution.

They're the ones doing the job every single day

and don't doubt their capability. Just because

if you did that role five, 10, 15 years ago,

that's five, 10, 15 years ago. Let's think back

of, right, how we even lived a few years ago

and how we do now. Change is, right, instantaneous

and happens every single second. That's another

thing. You as executives of leaders, have that

obligation to your people, and you need to take

that seriously in order for them to also have

that psychological safety to be able to step

up during the challenging times. And guess what?

People will understand when you do need to let

them go and other things. If, right, again, they've

been part of that change and part of trying to

figure anything and everything out to save costs.

they will eventually understand that a lot more

versus, right, we get pulled into a room or better

yet, I forget the company that just did this

with 30 ,000 employees, but they woke up to an

email and then, right, their laptops were turned

off and that's it. And that's how they found

out that they were being let go. Let's stop doing

that. Yeah. So those are very good points. And

at the beginning of what you said was that We

have AI. So when somebody, when a business owner

wants to hire people, right, they get thousands

of applications, whether they post the job online

or social media, wherever they post it, everything

gets filtered through AI. And now that platform,

that system picks the candidates that best fit

their job role based on this, this and this,

whatever you punch in. Well, here's the thing.

That's what I was just going to say. So the thing

is that that's good because it makes it a lot

faster rather than the business owner looking

at each one, which is what we used to do before

we had AI. But the problem is that what happens

is I want to look at those resumes and I want

to make sure that I'm not missing anything because

there are things that I can that can get out

of these people right before other than what

AI gives. So the thing is that I know when I

am picking these people, right, I want to pick

them where I know that they're going to be like.

really benefit my company because here's what's

going to happen if they're not going to work

out. And people think that I can do this a lot

faster than what people think. OK, I could do

a lot of this on an interview or maybe an orientation

or something. If people are not going to work

out, right, that's going to be a lot of extra

money that I'm going to have to spend training

people. Then they feel it's not a right fit or

the business owner is not going to like it. then

they quit, then I have to train more people.

It's extremely expensive for business owners

to train people. And just like you're training,

you're filtering, you're interviewing the people,

you're determining them, just like that, that's

the same thing as me treating my employees. in

a positive way because what's going to happen

if I don't treat them right, if I don't serve

them, if I don't give them the proper training

or relay whatever it is that I need to to explain

to them that they are now going to transfer to

the client. All of that is the same thing as

me not hiring the right people. The way that

I treat them and the way that I hire them. and

the way that I choose them is the same exact

thing. So that's why I need to be positive and

explain and describe things always in a positive

way where it's going to benefit the candidate

or the employee. It's not going to benefit me.

Ultimately, it will. But I'm not doing it to

serve my needs. I'm doing it to serve my employees

needs. And that way they can get me customers

and clients, even if they're not directly working

with them. It doesn't matter. It eventually will

get to the customer. I need to have a customer

for every single company. I will not have a company.

Okay, so this is the thing. So this is what a

lot of people, they look at it at face value.

And they say, well, this doesn't pertain to me

because I'm a tech company. My employees don't

deal with customers and different things like

that. They do, they do. So this is what I'm saying.

It's like, you have to use your imagination a

little bit and tech companies do this. You know

what I mean? They all have. Yeah. Yeah. I want

to, I want to go back to the AI thing. I think

here's the thing too. We, for some reason, and

I don't know where or when this happened, we

look at a lot of things as or. So it's this or

that, and actually very few things in our lives

are an or, and most of them are an and. And what

I mean by that, even like look at vows when somebody

gets married, it's for better or for worse. Well,

if you have a choice, what would anybody take

for worse? It's for better and worse. you're

going to have good days, you're going to have

bad days, or you can have a good and a bad hour

in the same day. The reason I bring that up is,

again, AI at the end of the day is a tool. It

is a fantastic, a very powerful tool, but people

need to use it that way. Because what happens

is, and again, with my experience, a lot of recruiting

and talent acquisition functions are very, very

understaffed. because AI is a tool, you can not

100 % rely on its abilities as well because at

the end of the day, people with a lot of bias

have also built it. And if we're going to be

completely honest, job description, most of them

suck. Like there's no other way of saying it.

They're outdated. There wasn't that much time

put into them. So any job description is a company's

best. attempt to try to capture what it is that

they think they need. Our resume is a candidate's

best attempt to try to capture in two, max three

pages, all of the experience that they think

somebody's gonna find right relevant. So we have

an imperfect job description, an imperfect resume,

and then we're laying an imperfect tool on top

of it. to try to make a match. It's a recipe

for disaster. So I think again, right, we can

use AI to help us navigate and maybe sort some

of the resumes, but I think you can not take

the human out of it because still. We are the

ones with all the experience that can see transferable

skills that understand what certain companies

are doing. And I also guarantee you that there's

so much bias on the recognizable logos of large

companies or still recognizable big names of

certain colleges that get resumes through to

the next. age that don't have the experience

that they need or right that the company requires,

they get pushed through for other reasons. So

there's things that we can do where we can actually

blind, where we can blind the resumes of names

of companies, of colleges, and truly just look

at that experience. and then identify individuals

that we might want to talk to. So again, I just

want to urge people to continue using technology

and tools as tools, not as a complete total replacement

for the human experience. It's not intelligent

enough to be able to pick up all of that, and

you're going to potentially Our resume is just

that it's a piece of paper. That's what gets

you an interview The rest is up to the person.

So again, let's just spend more time in that

process Finding the people and giving them the

time and the grace to talk about what they bring

to the table Versus it just being right was what

is what is in it for the company? It needs to

be it's a relationship. So it needs to be beneficial

for the company and the candidate Yeah, it's

easier for a business owner to look at AI and

have them filter all of those candidates, but

that's not going to benefit them in the long

run. So they should take that. little time, extra

time, whatever it is, little or a lot, that they

have to not just depend on that. It's a tool

that we could use. If you don't want to use it,

it's fine. Just go old school and go back and

just go through them again. It's not the end

of the world. But if you wanna use it, you still

need to filter those candidates yourself and

look at what is gonna benefit you. But the thing

is, how am I gonna be able to, is this person

gonna work out? How am I gonna be able to communicate

with this person, with this candidate? Because

sometimes, I hate to say it, but sometimes it

has to do with the the vibe that you're getting

from the candidate when they are on the interview,

that mental connection. So they could dress really

nice and look really good, you know, but how

do you feel? Think about what is your gut telling

you after you go on that interview. And these

are all connections because we don't, like you

said, we don't want to do it fast where I need

to hire somebody. OK, I'm going to hire 10 people

today, you know, and then I just hire this, this

and this. I just pick what AI gives me. That's

not going to be a successful business. because

we need to look at things where this is gonna

work out and this, I'm developing a very, very

positive company now where everybody will get

along and all of these things that I don't think

are gonna happen, they will happen because everybody

always has doubts and that's just a human thing,

but I don't have to have that. I can interview

people and just have, not only interview, but

have the employees that I have now, right? and

work with them and say, they will get along and

everything will be perfectly fine. And there

will be no problems at all. And every business

can get there, but they're the ones that are

holding themselves back. Yeah, I disagree with

the fact that it's possible to create an environment

where everybody gets along. I think that is actually

not reality. Here's the difference. I think a

lot of people... mistake, being professional

and working together and being friends. When

you are in a work environment, nobody's asking

you to be best friends with everybody. So you

can absolutely not like somebody as an individual,

but if you're working together, it is the expectation

that you are professional and cordial with one

another, and again, find a way to work with one

another. So I think that's where, again, it's

up to the company to create the experience, the

psychological safety, the ability to have constructive

conversations. to still have respect for one

another and totally okay if we never go to lunch

together and never go to happy hour or whatever

else it is so I think that's where right the

company needs to be honest about it but we also

need to be a lot more thoughtful in the entire

recruitment process in the interview process

in how we prep for it and unfortunately again

in 20 plus years of what I've seen it's an afterthought.

The managers are running from one meeting to

another, to another, to another. They review

the resume 30 seconds before they're walking

into the room with the candidates. They start

asking all the exact same questions from the

resume that already are stated there versus really

thinking through of what does my team look like?

What are the skills that I currently have? What

are some of the gaps in the skills that I have?

What are, again, some of the right, the really

strong individuals that I have on the team and

what do they bring to the table? And again, what's

lacking? What do we need right now? What do we

need in six months? What do we need in 12 months

based on where the business is going? And again,

ask those questions. Ask questions that have

people give you real life examples of how they've

handled the situation. If you're hiring somebody

for customer service. have them go through of

how do you deal talk to me about how you've dealt

with an irate candidate and if somebody tells

you they've never dealt with one and they've

been in customer service let's say right anywhere

longer than a year that is very difficult to

believe because we can all go outside and we'll

find an irate candidate or client customer anywhere

out in the world so ask those really thoughtful

questions again go into the interview if you

are interviewing somebody prepared and respect

them the same way as you know they have prepared

for that interview. And I think that's where

we missed the point. We asked again employees

last minute to jump in and interview somebody

where they don't know what they're looking for.

They don't know, right, what to ask them. They've

never been trained on how to interview. start

actually spending more time in that process and

treating it like the important process in it.

So those are some good points. But the ultimate

thing is we don't know what's going to happen

because nobody's a psychic. But the point to

this whole thing is that and we're talking about

the structure, the way that we conduct the interview

and how we get the candidates and that's totally

fine. But the point is that I always want to

go in and this is what you're giving examples

of this. I always want to go in with as positive

as an attitude that I could possibly have. So

if I say, oh, I'm going to interview 10 people,

but I'm probably not going to hire any of them

because they're probably not going to be good.

Do you think I'm going to hire anybody? Probably

not because I just went into that with that attitude

before I even interviewed anybody before. ever

walk through the door. And like I said, you're

giving all different examples of this type of

stuff. And I wanna make sure that not only am

I transferring that behavior to the employees,

right, but that they're accepting it. And they're

saying, this is really good, what my boss is

doing. And now I wanna practice that. positive

behavior or this specific thing that they're

teaching me. And what does that do? Then that

transfers to another employee. Not every employee

is going to get along. That's not reality. What

I say might not come true. That's the reality.

But the point is that how am I going into it?

How am I transferring that behavior? And that's

going to go by what kind of behavior do I have?

Am I negative? Am I positive? Am I controlling?

Am I manipulating? I mean, there's like a hundred

examples of this that we could go on with this

podcast for like three hours. You know what I

mean? And this is all the stuff that I teach

because not only is this gonna increase sales

and profits, but it's gonna make my company a

lot more successful and it's gonna make me a

lot more happier. than I am now. And then what

do I do? I take that behavior and then I transfer

it to my home, to my family. I think this was

a very good way to close. We're almost out of

time. So is there anything that you would like

to say in closing? I think, again, I would just

encourage every company to focus internally and

focus on building an environment, processes and

ways of working. that are based on your organization,

what makes you different and why customers come

and choose to work with you. Stop chasing what

everyone else around you is doing and copying

a little bit of that because you don't want to

be a version of somebody else. If you're going

to win, if you're going to be the company in

your industry, in your space. Focus on, again,

what makes you different and unique. Embrace

that. Be able to, again, clearly define that

to your customers, to your partners, to all of

your stakeholders, to future candidates. And

they will, again, if it aligns with their values

and what they're looking for, they'll come and

choose to work with you. And it's absolutely

okay that some do not, because again, you want

to bring in people that can thrive in the environment

that you have and what makes you different. Yeah,

very, very true. And that was an excellent way

to close. Thank you for listening to the Behavioral

Profit. At the end of the day, most businesses

don't have a strategy problem. They have a behavior

problem. When you identify what's actually driving

your results and shift it, performance changes.

If you found this valuable, take a look at your

own business, what's really driving your results

right now. Thanks for listening to Behavioral

Profit. I'll see you next time. And thank you

for being on the show. I appreciate it. Of course.

Thank you, Debbie.